Mortal Sin Vs. Grave Sin

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802166' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:53 PM']Okay, so if one of the three elements is missing the sin is considered venial? Like if you remove "grave matter" and are left with "full knowledge" and "deliberate consent" you could say swearing at someone is a venial sin, right? (Knowing it is wrong to do so but exercising your free will.)[/quote]

Right. There are three requirements that must be met for a person to be guilty of a mortal sin. If one requirement is not met, the person is guilty of a venial sin.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802174' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:00 PM']This is how I've always understood it. Though repeated venial sins can lead to mortal sin. Like repeated swearing, knowing its wrong and doing it anyways, may lead to a graver sin - I dunno maybe something like blasphemy or maybe a denial that it is even a sin. Maybe lead to some anger or something?[/quote]

Yes, this is actually in the Catechism - while venial sins do not ADD UP to a mortal sin they certainly do LEAD; they make us more susceptible to temptation.

Edited March 10, 2009 by HisChildForever

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802166' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:53 PM']Oh get over yourself, just once, that's all I ask.[/quote]

Have you two set a date? Are we all invited? I haven't been to a Catholic wedding in so long!

[rkwright]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802188' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:08 PM']Yes, this is actually in the Catechism - while venial sins do not ADD UP to a mortal sin they certainly do LEAD; they make us more susceptible to temptation.[/quote]

Yea... I was having a hard time thinking of a scenario where repeated swearing could lead to something that is a grave matter... maybe thats a good thing?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802191' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:10 PM']Yea... I was having a hard time thinking of a scenario where repeated swearing could lead to something that is a grave matter... maybe thats a good thing?[/quote]

Yes.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802190' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:10 PM']Have you two set a date? Are we all invited? I haven't been to a Catholic wedding in so long![/quote]

Well, at least you're seeking the [i]good[/i] kind of attention, I suppose.

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802190' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:10 PM']Have you two set a date? Are we all invited? I haven't been to a Catholic wedding in so long![/quote]





I needed that

I was at an Episcopalian wedding on the beach not to long ago

I do have one question.

I remember reading that Ratzinger's Uncle did not assent to Vatican I. He was excommunicated and attended Mass but did not take the Eucharist. So with relaion to salvation what is the distinction between being excommunicated and being in mortal sin?

[LouisvilleFan]

I voted "No" to both questions, but after reading through the thread, now I vote "Yes" to both. I was thinking of grave sin as being a sin of grave matter, regardless of whether it's committed with full knowledge and consent, but now I see the distinction.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802199' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:14 AM']I remember reading that Ratzinger's Uncle did not assent to Vatican I. He was excommunicated and attended Mass but did not take the Eucharist. So with relaion to salvation what is the distinction between being excommunicated and being in mortal sin?[/quote]

Seems that would depend on the reason for being excommunicated. I doubt one's failure to assent to Vatican I constitutes grave matter, whereas committing or contributing to an abortion definitely is. But I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than I.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802206' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:17 PM']Seems that would depend on the reason for being excommunicated. I doubt one's failure to assent to Vatican I constitutes grave matter, whereas committing or contributing to an abortion definitely is. But I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than I.[/quote]

Are you joking? Obstinate denial of any dogma (otherwise known as [b]heresy[/b]) most certainly constitutes a grave sin. And yes, Vatican I defined dogma.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1802209' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:21 PM']Are you joking? Obstinate denial of any dogma (otherwise known as [b]heresy[/b]) most certainly constitutes a grave sin. And yes, Vatican I defined dogma.[/quote]


So (and I don't mean to be abrupt) in the church's eyes George is in hell?

I mean I remember reading in "Founded on a Rock" the author saying the Church said prayers for Luthers soul still, even though I beleive he was excommunicated.

I ono

I have a headache

[rkwright]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802199' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:14 PM']


I needed that

I was at an Episcopalian wedding on the beach not to long ago

I do have one question.

I remember reading that Ratzinger's Uncle did not assent to Vatican I. He was excommunicated and attended Mass but did not take the Eucharist. So with relaion to salvation what is the distinction between being excommunicated and being in mortal sin?[/quote]

Ok just an overview...

Well there a lot of differences, especially in what can get you excommunicated vs. what is a mortal sin. There may be some overlap - a sin of disobedience, though I'm not sure if this is a grave matter? Edit: Resurrexi is right about the heresy stuff...

Excommunications are a proclamation by the Church that someone by a word, act, or deed, has put themselves outside the Church. These usually apply in matters of faith - you see these a lot in the Council of Trent "If you do X let them be in anathema!"

Helping or procuring an abortion is an automatic excommunication. When the SSPX consecrated the bishops without Rome's approval - violating the Church law, but maybe not necessarily a mortal sin - they were excommunicated.

Edited March 10, 2009 by rkwright

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1802209' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:21 AM']Are you joking? Obstinate denial of any dogma (otherwise known as [b]heresy[/b]) most certainly constitutes a grave sin. And yes, Vatican I defined dogma.[/quote]

Maybe it constitutes grave matter... but still, it's difficult to say that a person who lives a faithful life in nearly every other respect and even in refraining from reception of Holy Communion is in grave or mortal sin for their refusal of a dogma. It's definitely a far cry from participating in an abortion.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802213' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:24 AM']So (and I don't mean to be abrupt) in the church's eyes George is in hell?[/quote]

The Church cannot declare that anyone is in hell, not even the other thief on the cross who refused to admit his own sin and wanted to Jesus to come down from the cross to save them. We always have hope that grace can triumph over evil, even in the very last breath of life, if only a person turns to God with sorrow for their sin.

Edited March 10, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802245' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:51 PM']Maybe it constitutes grave matter... but still, it's difficult to say that a person who lives a faithful life in nearly every other respect and even in refraining from reception of Holy Communion is in grave or mortal sin for their refusal of a dogma. It's definitely a far cry from participating in an abortion.[/quote]

According to St. Thomas Aquinas unbelief, and heresy is a kind of unbelief, BTW, (cf. Summa Theologiae II-II, Q. 11, Art. 1) is a graver even than murder (cf. Summa Theologiae II-I, Q. 73, Art. 3).