Mortal Sin Vs. Grave Sin

[Resurrexi]

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Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[truthfinder]

I don't really get the purpose of this poll.
I might be wrong, but I believe Americans use the term grave sin more commonly. The traditional word (and perhaps more frightening when thinking eternal implications) is mortal sin. But they are the same.

Edited for clarity

Edited March 9, 2009 by truthfinder

[dairygirl4u2c]

the grave sin stuff, comes down to this: "grave sin" and "mortal sin" are used pretty much interchangeably. this is based on, and could only be based on, an empiracal observation- me, Al, etc, have noticed that. with that said, Kolbe said he thought he read or heard otherwise but so far that's unsubstantiated.
anything else one might argue, would be based on merely the fact that "grave" could in theory or if humans had demonstarted another usage, mean "serious venial sin" too. it's just a possibility.
if there's authoriztive empiracal demonstrations of the word otherwise, then me and Al etc would stand corrective. it's a question of fact. not a question of conjecture as i fear this thread is leaning towards, too much.

also if the poll person is just seeing what people think about it, i'm not criticizing.
i'm just making the points, just in case the author has different assumptions at odds with what i said in the last paragraph.

[cmotherofpirl]

Catholic Dictionary:

GRAVE SIN. The transgression of a divine law in a grievous matter with full knowledge and consent.

The matter may be serious either in itself (as blasphemy) or because of the circumstances (as striking one’s father or mother) or on account of its purpose (as telling a lie in order to destroy a person’s character). Sufficient knowledge of the serious nature of a sinful action is present if one is clearly conscious that the act is mortally sinful, say because the Scriptures or the Church identify certain acts as seriously offensive to God. It is enough that one knows that what one intends to do may be a mortal sin, but does it anyhow. Indifference to the laws of God is equivalent to disobeying them.

Full consent is present when one freely wills to commit an action although one clearly knows it is gravely sinful. No sin is committed if one does not will the deed, no matter how clear one’s knowledge may be. After all, the essence of sin is in the free will. Thus, too, a person does not sin who, with the best of will, cannot dispel obscene or blasphemous thoughts and desires, even though he or she well knows they are gravely sinful. The resolution to perform an action is not the same as the pleasure or satisfaction experienced in the emotions, nor the same as a compulsive idea, “I like the sin.” One sign of partial knowledge or not full consent would be the fact that a person does not complete an action when this can easily be done, or is so minded that the person would rather die than commit a grave sin.


MORTAL SIN. An actual sin that destroys sanctifying grace and causes the supernatural death of the soul. Mortal sin is a turning away from God because of a seriously inordinate adherence to creatures that causes grave injury to a person's rational nature and to the social order, and deprives the sinner of a right to heaven.

[color="#0000FF"]The terms mortal, deadly, grave, and serious applied to sin are synonyms, each with a slightly different implication. [/color]Mortal and deadly focus on the effects in the sinner, namely deprivation of the state of friendship with God; grave and serious refer to the importance of the matter in which a person offends God. But the Church never distinguishes among these terms as though they represented different kinds of sins. There is only one recognized correlative to mortal sin, and that is venial sin, which offends against God but does not cause the loss of one's state of grace. (Etym. Latin mors, death.)

[Ziggamafu]

Semantics...people may use the term "grave sin" in different ways but everyone means the same thing when he or she says "mortal sin". However:

[quote]During the Synod Assembly some Fathers proposed a threefold distinction of sins, classifying them as venial, grave and mortal. This threefold distinction might illustrate the fact that there is a scale of seriousness among grave sins.

-Pope John Paul II; [i]On Reconciliation and Penence[/i][/quote]

[Aloysius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1801943' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:54 PM'][color="#0000FF"]The terms mortal, deadly, grave, and serious applied to sin are synonyms, each with a slightly different implication. [/color]Mortal and deadly focus on the effects in the sinner, namely deprivation of the state of friendship with God; grave and serious refer to the importance of the matter in which a person offends God. But the Church never distinguishes among these terms as though they represented different kinds of sins. There is only one recognized correlative to mortal sin, and that is venial sin, which offends against God but does not cause the loss of one's state of grace. (Etym. Latin mors, death.)[/quote]
exactly! couldln't have said it better myself!

in fact, I didn't say it better myself... lol, what this describes about the difference between those words I have bashed my head against a brick wall trying to explain in debates with hot stuff on this issue (both the current one, and the one from a long time ago which was extremely similar). anyway, I fully endorse this quote, they are synonyms with different focuses.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1801954' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:07 PM']Semantics...people may use the term "grave sin" in different ways but everyone means the same thing when he or she says "mortal sin". However:[/quote]
I wonder if this third class might refer to what I said earlier about how I think many people use the term "grave sin" for a sin which meets the first of the criteria for mortal sin (grave matter) but not the other two. is this what they are referring to?

I think it more accurate to simply say "a sin of grave matter" if you want to mention that the sin committed was not a mortal sin, since the term "grave sin" has such a history of being applied synonymously with the term "mortal sin"

[Aloysius]

in the other thread, hot stuff thinks these CCC quotes indicate a difference between grave and mortal sin:

[quote]1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.


1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove [b]the imputability of a grave offense.[/b] But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.[/quote]
(I changed the emphasis)

to the first, the question is if one is conscious of the grave/mortal sin at that moment. one may commit a grave/mortal sin at which time one must be conscious of the fact and then forget about it. I would ask if the Church intended to teach this distinction, why is it left to such obscure passages on different subjects in a way that could be seen from either point of view? should not she have a whole section on how grave sins are different from mortal sins?

ignorance diminishes or removes the imputability of a grave offense, ie it is not imputed to the person who committed the offence, which is a grave/mortal sin.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801973' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:21 PM']ignorance diminishes or removes the imputability of a grave offense, ie it is not imputed to the person who committed the offence, which is a grave/mortal sin.[/quote]

You can't say grave/mortal because if the person doesn't know its a grave sin, it cannot be mortal.

It says it right there in the criteria of mortal sin Al ""Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter"


It has to be a sin and it has to be a grave one.

"and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

You have to know its a sin. It does not say "If you don't know its a sin then it absolutely isn't. It diminishes OR removes...

[Aloysius]

...IMPUTABILITY. a mortal sin that is not IMPUTED to a person is not a mortal sin for that person.

I wonder if you would comment on cmom's post... I'd be interested in your take on that excerpt of the Catholic Dictionary. right? wrong? does it at least in any way reflect on the viability of my position as at least a viable opinion (as you seem to indicate I am contradicting what the Church says about mortal vs grave sins)?

[Proud2BCatholic139]

I think of grave sin like you have an addiction to some things that are a part of the seven captial sins, but you can not control it. God has pardan and Mercy on those with addictions, because they do not fully consent to the sin. But it is still a very grave matter.

I see a grave sin in the matters of meeting 1 or 2 out of the three conditions of a mortal sin. For someone who has an addiction to gambling, pornography, masturbation, etc, they can not help it. Instead of judging them, let us instruct them, comfort them, and give them a sense of hope in Jesus, who is Mercy. Trusting in His infinite Mercy...to help instruct them to know that what they are doing is wrong and help them seek another direction, the direction toward truth, life, understanding...REALITY.

[Aloysius]

like i said, ppl sometimes use "grave sin" as shorthand for "sin of grave matter that doesn't meet the other conditions for mortal sin"... this has no basis that I can see in Church teaching or theology, but is a common way of making that distinction. I side with the Catholic Dictionary entry posted above.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1802003' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:36 PM']...IMPUTABILITY. a mortal sin that is not IMPUTED to a person is not a mortal sin for that person.

I wonder if you would comment on cmom's post... I'd be interested in your take on that excerpt of the Catholic Dictionary. right? wrong? does it at least in any way reflect on the viability of my position as at least a viable opinion (as you seem to indicate I am contradicting what the Church says about mortal vs grave sins)?[/quote]

Don't rewrite the catechism
[quote]Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of [b]a grave offense[/b].[/quote]

You want to side with a dictionary over the catechism that's your call.

[rkwright]

I posted this in the other thread... but no one responded

So I'll try it again...

Assuming there is a difference between mortal sin and grave sin...

Now we have 3 levels of sin - and 3 different consequences

We have mortal sin - which means go to hell, and cannot receive communion

We have grave sin - which means its a grave matter, but your missing one of the three aspects of mortal sin so its not mortal, so your not going to hell -BUT you can't receive communion (CCC says one aware of a grave sin cannot receive communion)

Then we have venial sin - doesn't send you to hell and you can receive communion

Honestly I've never heard of this, and it seems odd to me to say well you didn't commit a mortal sin, so your still in communion with the Church, but you can't receive communion because it was a grave sin.

IMO the term grave sin=mortal sin

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802124' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:28 PM']I posted this in the other thread... but no one responded

So I'll try it again...

Assuming there is a difference between mortal sin and grave sin...

Now we have 3 levels of sin - and 3 different consequences

We have mortal sin - which means go to hell, and cannot receive communion

We have grave sin - which means its a grave matter, but your missing one of the three aspects of mortal sin so its not mortal, so your not going to hell -BUT you can't receive communion (CCC says one aware of a grave sin cannot receive communion)

Then we have venial sin - doesn't send you to hell and you can receive communion

Honestly I've never heard of this, and it seems odd to me to say well you didn't commit a mortal sin, so your still in communion with the Church, but you can't receive communion because it was a grave sin.

IMO the term grave sin=mortal sin[/quote]

I think it makes sense. Remember on the other thread I used the example of my younger brother and his poor Mass attendance record. While I have reason to believe him missing Mass is [i]not[/i] a mortal sin, can his sin of missing Mass be "knocked down" to venial sin status, or would it make more sense to consider this a grave sin?