Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1801867' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:55 PM']The point of my quotation from the Summa wasn't to argue about the terminology of grave sin vs. mortal sin, it was to say that St. Thomas, a Saint and Doctor of the Church whose theology must be taught to seminarians according to the Code of Canon Law, taught that fornication (a grave matter) was was less grave a sin than hatred of God (another grave matter).[/quote]

and both of which would fall under the category of mortal sin should the requirements be met by the individual.

So it would follow that, if we have two people and one of them commit fornication and one of them commit the sin of hatred for God, Aquinas would hold that the person committing the mortal sin of hatred of God would be worse than the person who committed the sin of fornication, thus the mortal sin of hatred for God is worse than the sin of fornication, although both are still grievous mortal sins and both merit hell.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801871' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:00 PM'][u]Mortal Sin[/u]
[b]1. Know that it is a grave matter[/b]
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will

Hatred of God [u]is[/u] more grave than fornication but they are BOTH grave matters, fulfilling criteria number one on the "mortal sin list."

I see it as this -

[u]Mortal Sin: Hatred of God[/u]
1. Know that it is a [b]very, very grave matter[/b]
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will

=

[u]Mortal Sin: Fornication[/u]
1. Know that it is a [b]grave matter[/b]
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will[/quote]


So you agree then that some mortal sins are worse than others?

Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801873' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:02 PM']No need to get snippy, sweetheart. If you did not expect an answer you would have NOT posed a question. Your question has been answered already.[/quote]

anyways... apparently it wasn't as this thread has continued. If the answer was adequately given, then you would have no problem reposted and simply sticking to it, instead of having to continuously adapt and clarify your answer as the thread continues.

and yes, I would have posed the question even not expecting a sufficient answer, to show that there is none . If there is, then you'd give it.

Edited March 9, 2009 by goldenchild17

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1801877' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:03 PM']So you agree then that some mortal sins are worse than others?[/quote]

No, I thought my little chart there made this clear.

They differ in Criteria #1 but the point is that they fulfill it and the fact remains that mortal sin = mortal sin.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1801879' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:05 PM']anyways... apparently it wasn't as this thread has continued. If the answer was adequately given, then you would have no problem reposted and simply sticking to it, instead of having to continuously adapt and clarify your answer as the thread continues.[/quote]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1801859' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:50 PM']how can this be? How can an equal sin harbor a worse punishment? and why would a just God allow it?[/quote]

CMom, Post #78: [b]Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.[/b]

[quote]and yes, I would have posed the question even not expecting a sufficient answer, to show that there is none .[/quote]

What an absolute waste of time that would be.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801880' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:06 PM']They differ in Criteria #1 but the point is that they fulfill it and the fact remains that mortal sin = mortal sin.[/quote]

The Catechism explains that the mortal sin can differ in gravity within the first criteria marker (but in the end we all know it is a mortal sin)

[b]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: [u]"Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."[/u]131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 [u]The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.[/u]

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

Link: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#IV"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#IV[/url]

The fact is that the extent of the gravity can differ but in the end it is mortal sin -

Pulling out this quote and adding my say: [b]Mortal sin is sin whose object is [u]grave matter[/u] [some more grave than others] and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.[/b]

Is murder more grave than theft? Yes, the Catechism says this. But the Catechism does [i]not[/i] say that murder as mortal sin is "greater" than theft as mortal sin, the only difference is the gravity. Since mortal sin cuts you off from God's grace all mortal sin is equal in that respect.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801880' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:06 PM']No, I thought my little chart there made this clear.

They differ in Criteria #1 but the point is that they fulfill it and the fact remains that mortal sin = mortal sin.[/quote]

But your chart is flawed since St. Thomas didn't say that hatred of God is a graver matter than murder (though this is certainly true), he said that it is a graver [i]sin[/i] than murder.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1801889' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:19 PM']But your chart is flawed since St. Thomas didn't say that hatred of God is a graver matter than murder (though this is certainly true), he said that it is a graver [i]sin[/i] than murder.[/quote]

Okay, I read too quick. That is a good point. But I just find it terribly difficult to look and compare two mortal sins and say "This one is the worse of the two."

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801882' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:10 PM']CMom, Post #78: [b]Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.[/b][/quote]

No authoritative source, speculation and a possibly valid argument, but certainly no definitive answer. No wonder I didn't recognize this as the answer you referred to...

I think the Aquinas reference is far more valuable who says that hatred for God is a worse sin than fornication. Both of them are mortal sins should the requirements be met, therefore you have your answer.


[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801882' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:10 PM']What an absolute waste of time that would be.[/quote]

Maybe your not very familiar with common debate techniques? People do it all the time to illustrate that their opponent has no sufficient response. Not always effective, and not relevant to this discussion anymore because you did (albeit not nearly adequate) eventually answer my question.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801860' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:50 PM']Come on, Hassan. Her post implies BOTH.[/quote]

And why does it have more grave outcomes for the sinner?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801890' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:23 PM']Okay, I read too quick. That is a good point. But I just find it terribly difficult to look and compare two mortal sins and say "This one is the worse of the two."[/quote]

Very true. That's why we have the Church and must trust in her instead of our own judgment.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801825' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:24 PM']The act of stealing (mortal sin) was committed by both siblings. The parents punished them differently (for whatever reason, I used age as an example) but different punishments does NOT mean one mortal sin was "greater" than the other.[/quote]

now she's just being rigged.
she's willing to concede there are "different categories" of mortal sins, and there's varying degrees of guilt, but she won't concede that when you do a more offensive mortal sin, or have a sin that gives more guilt, that that could be called "greater".
you guys are arguing the same thing.
she's just out of line.
she hasn't made a valid distinction showing how it's any different.
i know i was being middle of the road earlier, but only cause it was warranted. here it's not warranted, she's just wrong. if not wrong, she hasn't made her case, at all.

(unless she's just stating without making it clear, that *in her opinion* you shouldn't call that *greater*)

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801890' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:23 PM']Okay, I read too quick. That is a good point. But I just find it terribly difficult to look and compare two mortal sins and say "This one is the worse of the two."[/quote]


I think that is a very understandable inclination

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]QUOTE (HisChildForever @ Mar 9 2009, 06:10 PM)
CMom, Post #78: Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.


No authoritative source, speculation and a possibly valid argument, but certainly no definitive answer. No wonder I didn't recognize this as the answer you referred to...

I think the Aquinas reference is far more valuable who says that hatred for God is a worse sin than fornication. Both of them are mortal sins should the requirements be met, therefore you have your answer.



QUOTE (HisChildForever @ Mar 9 2009, 06:10 PM)
What an absolute waste of time that would be.


Maybe your not very familiar with common debate techniques? People do it all the time to illustrate that their opponent has no sufficient response. Not always effective, and not relevant to this discussion anymore because you did (albeit not nearly adequate) eventually answer my question.[/quote]

keen insights.



also, "worse" v. "greater", there's no meaningful distinction, unless you're just trying to be argumentative, or insist there was a point to be made, when there was not, and ya didn't want to admit it. i mean, it's just a mistake, people, miscommunication.
edit: but she did admit that she read to quick, so props for that

Edited March 9, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1801895' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:24 PM']No authoritative source, speculation and a possibly valid argument, but certainly no definitive answer. No wonder I didn't recognize this as the answer you referred to...[/quote]

Her answer pretty much came from the Catechism.

[quote]Maybe your not very familiar with common debate techniques? People do it all the time to illustrate that their opponent has no sufficient response. Not always effective, and not relevant to this discussion anymore because you did (albeit not nearly adequate) eventually answer my question.[/quote]

Is it also a common debate technique to belittle your opponent with condescending remarks? I am so not getting why my unwillingness to respond to you has ANYTHING to do with my argument. My first impression was that you were too lazy to look for the answer yourself.

(Almost laughable that you consider yourself my "opponent" in a debate you jumped into on page five and did not directly address me until page six.)