Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Aloysius]

there are usually core issues actually being argued even if it seems sometimes like people's differences aren't actually differences. it's actually a little arrogant to come into a discussion and say "actually, I think you guys both believe the same thing"... sometimes you're right but often you're wrong and are just missing the crux of the argument yourself.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801608' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:54 PM']there are usually core issues actually being argued even if it seems sometimes like people's differences aren't actually differences. it's actually a little arrogant to come into a discussion and say "actually, I think you guys both believe the same thing"... sometimes you're right but often you're wrong and are just missing the crux of the argument yourself.[/quote]


No offense was intended.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801588' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:46 PM']this is not a loophole, it's simply a fact that those in eternal punishment are punished with different degrees of punishment.[/quote]

Yes, and JUST BECAUSE those in Hell are punished differently does not mean this is so because there are varying degrees of mortal sin.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801589' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:47 PM']I guess I wouldn't consider a 14 year old falling into mortal sin by getting drunk off alchohol he stole from his parents cabnit on the same plane as hacking up a hooker Bundi picked up.[/quote]

If the teenager:
1. Knows that stealing alcohol/drinking underage is a grave matter
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will
[b]Then[/b] it is a mortal sin.

If one of these elements is lacking (in this instance perhaps he is unaware that what he did was a grave matter) then it is not a mortal sin.

Hassan, I am getting the impression that you assume "X" is [u]always[/u] a mortal sin but this is not the case. As I explained with my example, missing Mass may not be a mortal sin for my brother but it is a mortal sin for me.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801593' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:48 PM']Then why the different pains of hell for different souls?[/quote]

Differences in guilt, which has already been explained.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote]Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell. Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies "before the judgment seat of Christ" to give an account of their personal deeds, "so that [b]each one may receive good or evil, [u]according to what he has done[/u] in the body"[/b] (2 Cor. 5.10).
-Pope Benedict XII; On the Beatific Vision of God[/quote]

Note the phrase "according to what he has done". This refers not to variances of engagement in grave actions but rather to variances of gravity within the actions themselves.

[quote]But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but [b]with unequal pains[/b].
-Ecumenical Council #17 (Basel)[/quote]

Why variances in the pains of Hell? Why the variances in guilt?

[quote]During the Synod Assembly some Fathers proposed a threefold distinction of sins, classifying them as venial, grave and mortal. This threefold distinction might illustrate [b]the [u]fact[/u] that there [i]is [/i]a scale of seriousness among grave sins. [/b]-Pope John Paul II; On Reconciliation and Penence[/quote]

Because of the commonsense FACT that there is a scale of seriousness among grave sins. Good grief, even the most stupid of non-believers recognize this basic fact of morality; otherwise there would be no variation in prison sentences.

Ugh.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801608' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:54 PM']there are usually core issues actually being argued even if it seems sometimes like people's differences aren't actually differences. it's actually a little arrogant to come into a discussion and say "actually, I think you guys both believe the same thing"... sometimes you're right but often you're wrong and are just missing the crux of the argument yourself.[/quote]

you could be right, but i don't see it.
i'm not dumb, so it's not being exlained very well. perhaps that's what you guys are hashing out.

see, this littls spat about the argumentation mgiht not even be a real argument, ie, if there's an argument and i don't see it, then i just didn't see it. if there's an argument and it's not hashed out yet, then i just didn't see it. if i'm right, which it appears so far, then i wasn't arrogant. if im wrong, perhaps i'm arrogant, but where's the line between arrogance and in good faith trying to point out a lack of dispute even if i'm wrong? it looks like if there's a fine line, then it's just two sides of the same coin. arrogance, maybe, good faith point, maybe. eye of the beholder, at worst, two sides of the same coin, at best, i say. (though you,d say arrogance and not eye of the beholder, ahhh, arguign about arguing.

Edited March 9, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

no offense taken, i'm just mentioning mostly to dairygirl, sometimes it's easy to fall into this "oh I see, everyone else is just blind to the fact that they actually agree"... I've fallen into that in the past regarding issues like the filioque debate between Eastern and Western Christians, it's a tendency to minimalize the differences and say "oh, they're just saying the same thing two different ways"... often, when one says that, they are misunderstanding both positions.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801617' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:57 PM']Yes, and JUST BECAUSE those in Hell are punished differently does not mean this is so because there are varying degrees of mortal sin.



If the teenager:
1. Knows that stealing alcohol/drinking underage is a grave matter
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will
[b]Then[/b] it is a mortal sin.

If one of these elements is lacking (in this instance perhaps he is unaware that what he did was a grave matter) then it is not a mortal sin.

Hassan, I am getting the impression that you assume "X" is [u]always[/u] a mortal sin but this is not the case. As I explained with my example, missing Mass may not be a mortal sin for my brother but it is a mortal sin for me.[/quote]

No, I understand that.



[quote]Differences in guilt, which has already been explained.[/quote]

I thought you were arguing that perhapse knowledgiable Catholics were held to a higher standard and could be more guilty than less knowledgiable Catholics who still were guilty of mortal sin. Then I asked my Pope question which you rejected. So I don't understand quite where this difference in guilt comes from.

Speaking of drinking, I've noticed from my posts last night that I seem to spell better when I'm a bit drunk

I wonder what else I'm better at when I've been drinking

Edited March 9, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801624' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:00 PM']no offense taken, i'm just mentioning mostly to dairygirl, sometimes it's easy to fall into this "oh I see, everyone else is just blind to the fact that they actually agree"... I've fallen into that in the past regarding issues like the filioque debate between Eastern and Western Christians, it's a tendency to minimalize the differences and say "oh, they're just saying the same thing two different ways"... often, when one says that, they are misunderstanding both positions.[/quote]

fair enough

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801624' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:00 PM']no offense taken, i'm just mentioning mostly to dairygirl, sometimes it's easy to fall into this "oh I see, everyone else is just blind to the fact that they actually agree"... I've fallen into that in the past regarding issues like the filioque debate between Eastern and Western Christians, it's a tendency to minimalize the differences and say "oh, they're just saying the same thing two different ways"... often, when one says that, they are misunderstanding both positions.[/quote]

this is true, i fall into that sometiems too.
i don't think i am here, but i admit i might be wrong.

[Aloysius]

for something to be a mortal sin, one must have full knowledge that it is wrong (this can be implicit, one may not be fully explicitly aware of their full knowledge), so HCF is right on that count... which only serves to reinforce the core of the argument that the difference between mortal sins which causes there to be different degrees of punishment in hell is the nature of the acts themselves.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i also think the filoque debate might be semantics. but then again, i can see some subtle arguments for how it might not be.
depends on who's arguing what etc.
i could be missing hte nuance here about what you guys are arguing, but i'm not seeing it.

[Aloysius]

well, you may have just killed the budding debate anyway, lol. I do think there's a disagreement here, though admittedly not the most important disagreement in history it's still an interesting thing to discuss and argue as it brings up many questions about the nature of sin and such.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801625' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:01 PM']I thought you were arguing that perhapse knowledgiable Catholics were held to a higher standard and could be more guilty than less knowledgiable Catholics who still were guilty of mortal sin.[/quote]

You misunderstood me.
My brother is a Catholic and so am I. He does not fully understand Church teaching (from what I gather) but I do. I am held to a higher standard than he is - what is a mortal sin for me is most likely not a mortal sin for him. This does NOT imply that he commits a "lesser" mortal sin for not attending Mass, it DOES imply that he commits NO mortal sin for not attending Mass.


[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801635' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:05 PM']for something to be a mortal sin, one must have full knowledge that it is wrong (this can be implicit, one may not be fully explicitly aware of their full knowledge), so HCF is right on that count... [b]which only serves to reinforce the core of the argument that the difference between mortal sins which causes there to be different degrees of punishment in hell is the nature of the acts themselves.[/b][/quote]

There is NO DIFFERENCE between mortal sins. Every single mortal sin cuts you from God's grace, WHERE is the difference?

Person X stole from their parents and Person Y stole from their parents (X and Y are siblings). X has to scrub the dishes and Y is restricted from the phone, the internet, and hanging out with friends for a solid week. BOTH stole from their parents - there is NO DIFFERENCE in the sin committed. However Y gets the worse of the two punishments because Y is older than X and should have known better.

[Aloysius]

what if person X steals $100 from their parents and person Y steals the car? what if person X stole from their parents but person Y rented a prostitute and entertained her in his parents' bed?

person X and person Y have committed grave sins against their parents, but one's sins are worse and will be punished worse for them.

your example is also possible, two people committing the same grave sin punished differently based upon their level of blameworthiness.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801665' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:20 PM']There is NO DIFFERENCE between mortal sins. Every single mortal sin cuts you from God's grace, WHERE is the difference?

Person X stole from their parents and Person Y stole from their parents (X and Y are siblings). X has to scrub the dishes and Y is restricted from the phone, the internet, and hanging out with friends for a solid week. BOTH stole from their parents - there is NO DIFFERENCE in the sin committed. However Y gets the worse of the two punishments because Y is older than X and should have known better.[/quote]


You ask where is the difference but then below give an example of y commiting a act of greater moral magnitude than x because of his age. Wasn't y's mortal sin a greater affront to God seeing as he was older and should have known better?