HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1801510' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:11 PM']And if different levels of hell exist according to different levels of sin of the different souls for commiting different mortal sin then how could there not be differences of magnitude amongst the mortal sins?[/quote] There are no different [b]levels[/b] of Hell but different [b]pains[/b] of Hell (which was thankfully explained to me). Mortal sin cuts you completely from God's grace. What does varying degrees of mortal sin even mean, exactly? Some mortal sin only cuts you halfway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801521' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:16 PM']There are no different [b]levels[/b] of Hell but different [b]pains[/b] of Hell (which was thankfully explained to me).[/quote] lol, I got confused with Dante [quote]Mortal sin cuts you completely from God's grace. What does varying degrees of mortal sin even mean, exactly? Some mortal sin only cuts you halfway?[/quote] I don't know. But if different individuals can have different levels of guilt and thus experience more extreme pains in hell then I don't know what other conclusion you could draw. I don't think that any sort of just God could punish a mass skipper with the same hell as Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I mean if you all are right I'm in some big time trouble, but am in as much trouble as Ted Bundi? I would hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1801528' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:20 PM']I mean if you all are right I'm in some big time trouble, but am in as much trouble as Ted Bundi? I would hope not.[/quote] Well just to be clear hell smells of elderberries no matter if your Bundi or whoever... Edited March 9, 2009 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 nope. but some would say that's just because you're not as blameable for what you do as he is, and some would say it's because what he does is worse than what you do. I think it's a combination of both those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1801525' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:19 PM']lol, I got confused with Dante [/quote] Yeah that's why I was confused with the teaching that each soul in Hell experiences the pain differently, I took that to mean Hell looks like an apartment complex and each floor gets worse as you go down. [quote]I don't know. But if different individuals can have different levels of guilt and thus experience more extreme pains in hell then I don't know what other conclusion you could draw. I don't think that any sort of just God could punish a mass skipper with the same hell as Hitler.[/quote] Right, but you have to remember that you have to fulfill three criteria to commit a mortal sin and one of those criteria is that you are fully aware that what you are doing is gravely wrong. I personally believe some Catholics are held to higher standards than others simply because they know better - they know the teachings of the Church better and should be held more accountable. (This does not mean that the Catholics that know less should not try and learn, I hope you get my point.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801503' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:09 PM']yes, and I cited the Council of Florence. That there are different degrees of mortal sins is a necessary logical conclusion from the teachings of the Church.[/quote] says nothing about varying degrees of mortal sins [quote name='XIX' post='1801513' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:13 PM']Can I just cite common sense? Where does the church teach that all mortal sins are equal? All I've seen is that all mortal sinners go to hell. All criminals go to jail, but that hardly means that all of them have equal punishments.[/quote] citing common sense isn't exactly a great debate tactic. It also removes all need for theology. Is it common sense that a wafer and a cup of wine become the body and blood of Christ? Nope. That's why we look at Church teaching. All the Church will tell you is that mortal sins cause a complete separation between man and God. She does not say that there are varying degrees of "complete separation". But feel free to use common sense with varying degrees of complete separation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1801536' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:23 PM']Well just to be clear hell smells of elderberries no matter if your Bundi or whoever...[/quote] Perhapse Abraham will have a beggar I neglected dip his finger in his glass and place a drop of water on my tongue to cool the heat of the flames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 the Church also says that people experience different degrees of punishment in hell. whether that means different degrees of experiencing the pain of sense or different degrees of experiencing the pain of loss, and I think it's both, doesn't matter, it means that some people are punished more in hell and some people are punished less. that is what the Church says. it is not different degrees of complete seperation, but different degrees of experiencing complete seperation; as was explained in the citation from the Catholic Encycopedia earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801549' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:27 PM']the Church also says that people experience different degrees of punishment in hell. whether that means different degrees of experiencing the pain of sense or different degrees of experiencing the pain of loss, and I think it's both, doesn't matter, it means that some people are punished more in hell and some people are punished less. that is what the Church says.[/quote] But this does NOT mean that X's mortal sin and Y's mortal sin differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801540' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:24 PM']Yeah that's why I was confused with the teaching that each soul in Hell experiences the pain differently, I took that to mean Hell looks like an apartment complex and each floor gets worse as you go down. Right, but you have to remember that you have to fulfill three criteria to commit a mortal sin and one of those criteria is that you are fully aware that what you are doing is gravely wrong. I personally believe some Catholics are held to higher standards than others simply because they know better - they know the teachings of the Church better and should be held more accountable. (This does not mean that the Catholics that know less should not try and learn, I hope you get my point.)[/quote] Ok. So the Pope kicks a cat and falls into mortal sin (just the first thing that came to mind) and I kick a cat and fall into mortal sin, the Pope's sin is greater because of his knowledge etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' post='1801542' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:24 PM']citing common sense isn't exactly a great debate tactic. It also removes all need for theology. Is it common sense that a wafer and a cup of wine become the body and blood of Christ? Nope. That's why we look at Church teaching. All the Church will tell you is that mortal sins cause a complete separation between man and God. She does not say that there are varying degrees of "complete separation".[/quote] I'm not sure if you just misspoke, but isn't that exactly what the church is saying? There are varying degrees of "complete separation"? The quote from Ott's book says there are varying degrees of the pain of separation and varying degrees of the pain of punishment. Thats what we have as far as "cites". I don't think there have been any sources that say each mortal sin is different, but thats not what you said? But thats Al just following naturally from the source that there are different punishments in hell. Edit: Maybe Al has a better understanding of your word choice? Edited March 9, 2009 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote][b]1857[/b] For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131[/quote] There are varying degrees of grave sins. And the Church talks about that. But grave sins does not equal mortal sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1801552' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:30 PM']Ok. So the Pope kicks a cat and falls into mortal sin (just the first thing that came to mind) and I kick a cat and fall into mortal sin, the Pope's sin is greater because of his knowledge etc?[/quote] Kicking a cat is not a mortal sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801551' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:30 PM']But this does NOT mean that X's mortal sin and Y's mortal sin differ.[/quote] then why is X punished worse than Y? God's whims? to me, it is a combination of either X did something which was worse than Y, or X did something in a worse way than Y did something. but those are both factors, and the exclude the former as a factor is to exclude common sense and logic in a case when the Church has not something contrary to common sense and logic (the way she has regarding the Eucharist, that teaching is contrary to common sense and at common logic, but the Church says so so it is so) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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