Jaime Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Ok so you can't cite any sources. That's cool I just want to separate opinion from fact. You might be right about hell but its just opinion. The more important point (and the one you deflected) is that the Church does not state that there are varying degrees of mortal sin. If you are going to explicitly state something that is not there, the burden of proof is on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1801462' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:55 PM']You're only discussing half of the punishment of hell. The chief punishment is separation from God, but there is also a "pain of sense". You're really extrapolating out from what you said earlier, and your conclusion (hell is the same for every soul) isn't found in the CCC. The Catholic Encyclopedia says it flat out: The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss.[/quote] Hm, okay. I guess I've always thought of souls suffering different pains from each other to mean that Hell is comprised of different levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1801376' date='Mar 9 2009, 01:41 PM']Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder...[/quote] Reminds me of a philosophy professor I knew who showed a PETA video to his ethics class on the production of Veal, argued with them adamantly that veal was immoral, and got them all to agree with him. Then at the end of class he'd ask about their plans for the weekend and when they asked his planes he said he was going to a nice restraunt and get some veal. But isin't it immoral? Yes, but very, very tasty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 From Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma... The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one's guilt (Sent. communis.) The Union Council of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments (poenis tamen disparibus puniendas). This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin (poena damni) and of personal sins (poena damni and poena sensus) but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins. Jesus threatens the inhabitants of Corazain and Bethsaida, on account of their slowness to repent, with stricter judgment than the dwellers in Tyre and Sidon (Mt. 11:22). The Scribes are subject to particularly strict judgment (Luke 20:47). St. Augustine teaches: "In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others" (Enchir. III). Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1801489' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:04 PM']Ok so you can't cite any sources. That's cool I just want to separate opinion from fact. You might be right about hell but its just opinion. The more important point (and the one you deflected) is that the Church does not state that there are varying degrees of mortal sin.[/quote] I bought a very detailed plan of hell from an ecenric Italian fellow. Named Danta, Dante....something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801456' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:53 PM']I cite logic. Why don't you cite a teaching that says there are not varying degrees of mortal sin?[/quote] Wow, this is SUCH a cop-out. There are varying degrees of sin (mortal and venial) but mortal sin is mortal sin. [quote]We both cite our own logical conclusions based upon the teachngs in place; I think your conclusions are wrong. I'm pretty sure we've danced this dance before, though...[/quote] The problem is that YOU have not cited your conclusions or any teachings. Furthermore, I see that a Church Scholar asked you for a source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801497' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:05 PM']Wow, this is SUCH a cop-out. There are varying degrees of sin (mortal and venial) but mortal sin is mortal sin. The problem is that YOU have not cited your conclusions or any teachings. Furthermore, I see that a Church Scholar asked you for a source.[/quote] Haven't a few Church Fathers and Eccumenical Councils been cited by now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1801501' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:07 PM']Haven't a few Church Fathers and Eccumenical Councils been cited by now?[/quote] About Hell, NOT ABOUT varying degrees of mortal sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 yes, and I cited the Council of Florence. That there are different degrees of mortal sins is a necessary logical conclusion from the teachings of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If only a mortal soul can beaver dam someone and in hell there are different degrees of punishment according to guilt, and this degree is not a quantative measure, necessairly, then the only logical conclusion would be that withing the category of mortal sin some have greater magnitude than others. I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 to play advocate of the other side for a second, I believe they would view different degrees of punishment in hell as coming to people based upon what degree of culpability they have for those mortal sins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801502' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:07 PM']About Hell, NOT ABOUT varying degrees of mortal sin.[/quote] And if different levels of hell exist according to different levels of sin of the different souls for commiting different mortal sin then how could there not be differences of magnitude amongst the mortal sins? Goodness, you all are Catholics not Hanbal Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1801489' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:04 PM']Ok so you can't cite any sources. That's cool I just want to separate opinion from fact. You might be right about hell but its just opinion. The more important point (and the one you deflected) is that the Church does not state that there are varying degrees of mortal sin. If you are going to explicitly state something that is not there, the burden of proof is on you[/quote] I'll try although I think last time I was on the other side of this... I might be undecided All souls in Hell died in a state of moral sin. Hell has varying degrees of punishment based on guilt. :.All souls who die in mortal sin have varying degrees of guilt. Now, I'm not sure if that really gets to there are varying degrees of mortal sin, or there are varying degrees of mortal sinners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1801426' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:34 PM']Cite the teaching please[/quote] Can I just cite common sense? Where does the church teach that all mortal sins are equal? All I've seen is that all mortal sinners go to hell. All criminals go to jail, but that hardly means that all of them have equal punishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801509' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:11 PM']to play advocate of the other side for a second, I believe they would view different degrees of punishment in hell as coming to people based upon what degree of culpability they have for those mortal sins[/quote] Could be, I really don't know. Even if culpability were the determining factor rather than the objective action would that still mean there was a difference of magnitude amongst the mortal sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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