Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Aloysius]

lol, sorry, when you were saying "Do not mass. Do not kill..." I was reading and listening to Luke Kelly so I kind of mixed in an Irish accent to reading that and I got an image of the last scene of the Boondock Saints...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Deb' post='1827161' date='Apr 6 2009, 11:36 PM']Yes. Both are mortal sins. Missing Mass sometimes has to be done, if say you are really sick etc. Murder never has to be done. Missing Mass because you are murdering someone is not a valid excuse to get out of the mortal sin of missing Mass.

Do not miss Mass. Do not murder anyone. Do not ever commit a mortal sin. It really isn't that hard you know. Just don't leave the house, speak, read anything, watch tv or go on the internet. You will be really safe. Oh, leave the house to go to Mass though.

If you confess to missing Mass you will be absolved and life will be good again. If you confess to Murder, no absolution for you until you fess up to the pooooolice. Big difference. Two mortal sins. Two very different outcomes for your life on earth. Now, if you fess up to the murder and go to the poooooolice and do your time, you can get your absolution and life will be good again. You will be in prison til you die or three years, which ever comes first, but you will be good with God and that is what it is all about. [/quote]

Someone who has confesses murder in the context of the Sacrament of Penance is in no way obliged to turn himself into the police.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

The power of the keys is for both releasing or holding one bound to his sin.

[Deb]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1827923' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:15 PM']Someone who has confesses murder in the context of the Sacrament of Penance is in no way obliged to turn himself into the police.[/quote]

No, he is not obliged to, but I doubt that he will be granted absolution. Absolution is the point of the confession.

[picchick]

lol...I love arguing about mortal sin.


I go to hell. It will still hurt no matter what how much or how little my pain is compared to the person I share my cell with. In fact, the person I share my cell with, just might be my pain.

In any case, our bodies join our souls. If we still retain the bodily feeling that we did on earth, everyone will feel their pain differently. In that case, no one will be able to say, "Look at my pain, it is greater." because they really don't know the next guy's pain.

I'd have to say that there are different categories of mortal sin but mortal sin is mortal sin no matter how you turn it around. You are still dead from God, grace and the Church. In order to recieve Holy Communion you need to go to confession.

Why does it matter what is greater or lesser?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' post='1827943' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:26 PM']Why does it matter what is greater or lesser?[/quote]
In the final analysis it only matters to the one who sends himself to hell.

[picchick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1827947' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:28 PM']In the final analysis it only matters to the one who sends himself to hell.[/quote]


Exactly...and if that person is really debating in their head..."Was my mortal sin REALLY as mortal as that other mortal sin?" then there is something wrong.

[reyb]

[indent]Excuse me…

There is another topic of this kind named [topic="1265731"]‘Missing Mass is a Mortal Sin (Yes or No)[/topic] – Okay so let us go back to the very beginning of this issue. Who said Missing a mass is a mortal sin or whatever kind of sin against God? [/indent]

[Dr_Asik]

Missing mass is a mortal sin; Murdering is a mortal sin; but from there one cannot say that they are equal in gravity. Obviously, a mortal sin is worse than a venial sin; but some mortal sins are more evil than others. An abortion, for example, is far more evil than any other kind of murder, even though any kind of murder is a mortal sin.

It seems obvious that murdering is more evil than missing mass. Because he who misses mass is commiting a symbolic offense against God, and puts his own salavation in jeopardy. However, he who murders also commits a grave injustice against his brother, and against the family of his brother, and against civil law, and against society.

[quote name='reyb' post='1829522' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:11 AM'][indent]Excuse me…

There is another topic of this kind named [topic="1265731"]‘Missing Mass is a Mortal Sin (Yes or No)[/topic] – Okay so let us go back to the very beginning of this issue. Who said Missing a mass is a mortal sin or whatever kind of sin against God? [/indent][/quote]"[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0111.html"]...Moreover, “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass...” (#1247). Therefore, the Catechism teaches, “Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit grave sin” (#2181), and grave sin is indeed mortal sin. Recently, our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, repeated this precept in his apostolic letter Dies Domini (Observing and Celebrating the Day of the Lord, #47, 1998).[/url]"

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1804189' date='Mar 11 2009, 11:05 PM']You want to hold the opinion that all mortal sins are different. That's fine. You join some pretty great minds in doing so. But as much as I love Aquiinas, I tire of some people's simplistic use of him. And Aquinas is not considered an infallible source.

What is taught by the Magesterium is that all mortal sin cuts us off completely from grace. This is infallible and Aquinas would not disagree with that.

Some people around here have a pretty simplistic and 6th grade understanding of mortal sin.[/quote]All mortal sins cuts us off completely from grace, but the gravity of a sin is not a function on its effects on grace. The gravity of a sin is a function of its object, the intention of the agent, and the circumstances leading to it. [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm#II"]CCC #1750 [/url]

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='picchick' post='1827943' date='Apr 7 2009, 06:26 PM']Why does it matter what is greater or lesser?[/quote]You're supposed to be concerned about the morality of your actions, not just whether they get you sent to hell or not. Reasoning only in terms of potential retribution is the mentality of a dog, and a badly educated one at that. In any case, such reasoning won't get you very far. For instance, you might have to choose between two evils; then, you should choose the lesser. Or if you are implied in the application of civil law (whether you're a lawyer or a judge, etc.), then you must be able to judge of the gravity of actions to determine what kind of punishement should be given.

Morality is not based on the distinction between venial and mortal sins, it's the opposite.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1829565' date='Apr 8 2009, 10:57 PM']You're supposed to be concerned about the morality of your actions, not just whether they get you sent to hell or not. Reasoning only in terms of potential retribution is the mentality of a dog, and a badly educated one at that. In any case, such reasoning won't get you very far. For instance, you might have to choose between two evils; then, you should choose the lesser. Or if you are implied in the application of civil law (whether you're a lawyer or a judge, etc.), then you must be able to judge of the gravity of actions to determine what kind of punishement should be given.

Morality is not based on the distinction between venial and mortal sins, it's the opposite.[/quote]
One can never "choose the lesser of two evils" if it involves actively doing evil.

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1829542' date='Apr 8 2009, 10:29 PM']"[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0111.html"]...Moreover, “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass...” (#1247). Therefore, the Catechism teaches, “Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit grave sin” (#2181), and grave sin is indeed mortal sin. Recently, our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, repeated this precept in his apostolic letter Dies Domini (Observing and Celebrating the Day of the Lord, #47, 1998).[/url]"[/quote]

[indent]Now, since the core of the mass is the Eucharist; it only follows that anyone who intentionally failed to participate in the Eucharist commits mortal or grave sin. Do I get it right? [/indent]

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1829616' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:29 AM']One can never "choose the lesser of two evils" if it involves actively doing evil.[/quote]Sure, but situations happen where whatever you do, some evil will result. A treatment for a grave disease might cause permanent damage to other parts of the body, however avoiding this would mean letting the person die. A good doctor will have to decide which is the lesser evil. This is not "actively doing evil"; the point of the treatment is saving the patient's life, which is good, and the point of letting the patient die is refusal of therapeutic obstination, which is also good. Nonetheless, they both have evil consequences, and the better one is the one with the lesser evil consequences.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1829724' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:36 AM']Sure, but situations happen where whatever you do, some evil will result. A treatment for a grave disease might cause permanent damage to other parts of the body, however avoiding this would mean letting the person die. A good doctor will have to decide which is the lesser evil. This is not "actively doing evil"; the object of the treatment is saving the patient's life, which is good, and the object of letting the patient die is refusal of therapeutic obstination, which is also good. Nonetheless, they both have evil consequences, and the better one is the one with the lesser evil consequences.[/quote]
In that case, one of the two options can't be considered sinful in any way. The outcome is evil, but the action is not, and because of the whole Double Effect, the person does not sin.