Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Jaime]

Hey can someone tell me when the Summa was declared to be an infallible document of the Church?

Anyone?

[goldenchild17]

so that's what it's been reduced to then?...

[Jaime]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1804185' date='Mar 11 2009, 10:00 PM']so that's what it's been reduced to then?...[/quote]


You want to hold the opinion that all mortal sins are different. That's fine. You join some pretty great minds in doing so. But as much as I love Aquiinas, I tire of some people's simplistic use of him. And Aquinas is not considered an infallible source.

What is taught by the Magesterium is that all mortal sin cuts us off completely from grace. This is infallible and Aquinas would not disagree with that.

Some people around here have a pretty simplistic and 6th grade understanding of mortal sin.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Bubblicious' post='1804170' date='Mar 11 2009, 09:41 PM']The Pope LOVES cats! He'd never kick one! [/quote]


He is a very wise and inteligent man

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1804189' date='Mar 11 2009, 10:05 PM']You want to hold the opinion that all mortal sins are different. That's fine. You join some pretty great minds in doing so. But as much as I love Aquiinas, I tire of some people's simplistic use of him. And Aquinas is not considered an infallible source.

What is taught by the Magesterium is that all mortal sin cuts us off completely from grace. This is infallible and Aquinas would not disagree with that.

Some people around here have a pretty simplistic and 6th grade understanding of mortal sin.[/quote]


How about the Council of Trent?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1804189' date='Mar 11 2009, 09:05 PM']You want to hold the opinion that all mortal sins are different. That's fine. You join some pretty great minds in doing so. But as much as I love Aquiinas, I tire of some people's simplistic use of him. And Aquinas is not considered an infallible source.

What is taught by the Magesterium is that all mortal sin cuts us off completely from grace. This is infallible and Aquinas would not disagree with that.

Some people around here have a pretty simplistic and 6th grade understanding of mortal sin.[/quote]

Fair enough, and I would agree. All mortal sin is deadly no matter what one thinks on this debate. But I have to comment on your last line. I think a cut-and-dry all mortal sins are equal and deadly, and just leave it at that, is a 6th grade understanding of mortal sin. And sure, that's enough for the Catholic to know regarding the matter. But its interesting to discuss it further. I don't think there's an infallible teaching either way on this.

I just reacted to what I thought was an unfair nonchalant dismissal of Aquinas. I apologize if that's not what you intended.

[Jaime]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1804211' date='Mar 11 2009, 10:25 PM']Fair enough, and I would agree. All mortal sin is deadly no matter what one thinks on this debate. But I have to comment on your last line. I think a cut-and-dry all mortal sins are equal and deadly, and just leave it at that, is a 6th grade understanding of mortal sin. And sure, that's enough for the Catholic to know regarding the matter. But its interesting to discuss it further. I don't think there's an infallible teaching either way on this.

I just reacted to what I thought was an unfair nonchalant dismissal of Aquinas. I apologize if that's not what you intended.[/quote]


I love Aquinas and I've studied him. He's a doctor of the Church for a reason. But there are people who trot him out conveniently to make an argument when they may not have a full understanding of Thomas

[Bubblicious]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1804204' date='Mar 11 2009, 10:21 PM']He is a very wise and inteligent man [/quote]


On so many levels!!


Even levels of sin!

Edited March 12, 2009 by Bubblicious

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1804211' date='Mar 11 2009, 07:25 PM']Fair enough, and I would agree. All mortal sin is deadly no matter what one thinks on this debate. But I have to comment on your last line. I think a cut-and-dry all mortal sins are equal and deadly, and just leave it at that, is a 6th grade understanding of mortal sin. And sure, that's enough for the Catholic to know regarding the matter. But its interesting to discuss it further. I don't think there's an infallible teaching either way on this.

I just reacted to what I thought was an unfair nonchalant dismissal of Aquinas. I apologize if that's not what you intended.[/quote]

in the end, we're all just "dumb oxen"

[Aloysius]

hot stuff, have you answered in this thread how and why people who all have committed equal sins are punished to different degrees in hell? or how the Council of Trent speaks of some of the sins of the decalogue having the potential to injure the soul worse than other sins of the decalogue?

oh PLEASE mister master hot stuff with your great degree enlighten us poor sixth graders with your insights into Aquinas, then. I have read the entire Summa, quite a few commentaries on Aquinas, quite a bit of Aristotle, et cetera, and no one claimed the Summa as infallible, but understanding it can help to understand the Catechism. he's a doctor of the Church whose understanding of the nature of sin has had a large influence on the way the Catechism itself understands sin because it's had such an effect on the last few centuries of Catholic thought, but Aquinas is not the sole source that has been used here. I have engaged all your points, and yet you refuse to engage many of mine and seemingly have no answers for them.

[HisChildForever]

Wow, this thread is still kicking.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801984' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:27 PM']and the question is why they would be suffering different punishments? because Hitler had committed the worse sin, because genocide is a worse sin than masturbation.[/quote]

To think a baptised catholic christian who loves God would be sent to hell for masturbating or missing mass is disturbing.
It's a mortal sin ok so you can go to confession for it and be safe. cool.
But sometimes the flesh is a tough thing to defeat. I dont see how God would allow one to suffer in hell for eternity the same as hitler for masturbating.

What about knowing our heart and if we love God or not ?
It's hard to believe every cathoic that doesnt go to mass everyweek is going to go to hell.
That's scary.

Other churches dont teach this yet they are our seperated brothers and sisters in Christ.
So if they dont have to live up to this why do catholics ?

It seems like if this is the teaching, (that protestants are our seperated brothers and sisters in Christ) a protestant who lives a good life and goes to church every other week and masturbates will get to go to heaven. Mabey purgatory first but still probally heaven. So how is an all loving God going to send a catholic to hell for eternity for doing the same thing the prostestant in good standing did ?

Because the catholic knew more ? I guess that's the deal breaker and answers the question. But it doesn't make sence to me. It seems like that is just making God like a computer who is only about rules and decides everythig upon that.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Guest

[Aloysius]

[quote][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church:[/b]
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and [b]gravely disordered action.[/b] [color="#FF0000"][ie, it is grave matter][/color]"[137] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."[138]
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors [b][i]that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.[/b][/i]
...
2396 Among the sins [b]gravely[/b] contrary to chastity are [b]masturbation[/b] [color="#FF0000"][grave matter][/color] , fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

[color="#FF0000"][(emphasis mine)][/color][/quote]

that last part of 2352 seems to cover your objection, but the whole paragraph of 2352 really gives the argument for why it is grave (serious) matter, because you're detracting from the marital act (even if you are not yet married, it does so to your future spouse; and if you never intend to be married, it is bad for you to have sexual pleasure then, because sexual pleasure is intended for marriage)

anyway, back to the last part of 2352, lessened culpability means it is a venial sin for the person who engaged in it, and venial sins do not send one to hell (though they lead to mortal sins and are to be fought again just as much)... "extenuated" culpability would mean it was not a sin at all... I think that if anyone qualifies for such a thing it would be someone in the midst of puberty who had not had a proper formation and did not know it was wrong, but for most people who have a hard time fighting their bodily urges, it is likely a lessened culpability and thus a venial sin which would not send one to hell.

HOWEVER, it is helpful in the fight against such sins, which have grave matter still and are thus still very dangerous sins even if they are only venial for you due to your culpability, to not presume a lessened culpability for yourself and always go to confession before communion when you have committed this sin. I would say that, before ever assuming you have a lessened culpability for the sin that makes it venial, consult your confessor who will himself consider what pastoral guidance he ought to give you according to Catechism 2352.

for one to have committed a mortal sin, it must be a sin of grave matter, you must know that it is wrong, and you must give full consent of your will. many factors often lessen one's ability to give full consent of the will, but again, never presume this and always seek the advice of a good confessor about it.

[grace2u]

All sin separates us from God - that's hell. So all sin is 'equal'.
However, if you are talking consequences, each offense carries its own penalty.

Skipping Mass = spiritual penalty, loss of communion of the saints (in the here and hereafter).
Murder = spiritual penalty, emotional suffering, civil/criminal penalties including trial, jail, stigma, loss of personal rights and freedon, can't vote, etc.

You won't go to prison for missing Mass on purpose, but you will still suffer the consequences for it.

[Deb]

Yes. Both are mortal sins. Missing Mass sometimes has to be done, if say you are really sick etc. Murder never has to be done. Missing Mass because you are murdering someone is not a valid excuse to get out of the mortal sin of missing Mass.

Do not miss Mass. Do not murder anyone. Do not ever commit a mortal sin. It really isn't that hard you know. Just don't leave the house, speak, read anything, watch tv or go on the internet. You will be really safe. Oh, leave the house to go to Mass though.

If you confess to missing Mass you will be absolved and life will be good again. If you confess to Murder, no absolution for you until you fess up to the pooooolice. Big difference. Two mortal sins. Two very different outcomes for your life on earth. Now, if you fess up to the murder and go to the poooooolice and do your time, you can get your absolution and life will be good again. You will be in prison til you die or three years, which ever comes first, but you will be good with God and that is what it is all about.