Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Socrates]

That there are different levels of gravity among mortal sins, and corresponding greater and lesser levels of pain or punishment in hell has ALWAYS been the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I'll repeat some of the key sources quoted earlier:
[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801456' date='Mar 9 2009, 01:53 PM']also, the Council of Florence states that there are varying degrees of punishment in hell:
"[b]But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.[/b]" There are indeed unequal pains in hell.[/quote]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:[quote](1)[b] The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. [/b]A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment -- all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.[/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm[/url]
(I'd recommend reading the entire article.)

[quote name='rkwright' post='1801492' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:04 PM']From Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma...

The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one's guilt (Sent. communis.)

[b]The Union Council of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments (poenis tamen disparibus puniendas). This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin (poena damni) and of personal sins (poena damni and poena sensus) but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins.[/b]

Jesus threatens the inhabitants of Corazain and Bethsaida, on account of their slowness to repent, with stricter judgment than the dwellers in Tyre and Sidon (Mt. 11:22). The Scribes are subject to particularly strict judgment (Luke 20:47).

St. Augustine teaches: "In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others" (Enchir. III). Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt.[/quote]

This teaching of the Church is reiterated in the Baltimore Catechism (which was the official Catechism for use in the U.S.):[quote]Q. 1398. Are the rewards in heaven and the punishments in hell the same for all who enter into either of these states?

A. [b]The rewards of heaven and the punishments in hell are not the same for all who enter into either of these states, because each one's reward or punishment is in proportion to the amount of good or evil he has done in this world.[/b] But as heaven and hell are everlasting, each one will enjoy his reward or suffer his punishment forever.[/quote]


[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801521' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:16 PM']There are no different [b]levels[/b] of Hell but different [b]pains[/b] of Hell (which was thankfully explained to me).

Mortal sin cuts you completely from God's grace. What does varying degrees of mortal sin even mean, exactly? Some mortal sin only cuts you halfway?[/quote]
Obviously, there are different pains of hell because some mortal sins are worse than others, and thus receive greater punishment.
A just God does not arbitrarily assign different pains of hell just for the *hell* of it; it is to satisfy justice.

If you really want to get into the theology of this, St. Thomas Aquinas goes into great length explaining how and why not all sins (even all mortal sins) are equal.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article2"][b]Summa Theologica: Question 73. The comparison of one sin with another[/b][/url]
(Sorry, too much in there to quote, but I [i]strongly[/i] recommend reading it.)

St. Thomas and St. Augustine, as well as all the other Fathers of the Church, [i]clearly[/i] taught that not all mortal sins are equal.

This is just common sense, too.
Do you really think a kid who masturbates, or steals fifty bucks, is just as guilty and deserving of the exact same degree of eternal punishment as someone who orders genocide?

Be honest.

The politically-correct assertion made by some contemporary self-styled "theologians" that all mortal sins are of equal gravity, and that none receive greater punishment in hell than others contradicts 2000 years of Catholic theology, and is NOWHERE decreed by the Church.

This debate is finished.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Zoecool13' post='1802244' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:51 AM']I've been busy today. Haven't had time to reply, but been trying to keep up with the reading. Honestly, didn't think a 10 page response would've occurred within 12 hours.

Also, I'm not sure how i feel.

They are both grave/mortal sins. So in that regard, yes, they are equal. Committing either will send you to hell, and this has been the first time i've heard of different levels of hell/heaven, and i'm not sure how much I believe of that, and need to do a lot more research and studying on it to form an opinion.

So, in my opinion, since both cause harm to one's grace, both need to be confessed to be forgiven, and both have the same outcome if not forgiven of landing oneself in Hell, yea, I'd say they're equal in the eyes of God.[/quote]
If its posted by church militant or church scholar, its accurate we are careful about that kind of stuff around here.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1803096' date='Mar 10 2009, 08:55 PM']That there are different levels of gravity among mortal sins, and corresponding greater and lesser levels of pain or punishment in hell has ALWAYS been the teaching of the Catholic Church.


This debate is finished.[/quote]


I think this debate was over quite some time ago, but perhapse some will persist

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1803098' date='Mar 10 2009, 08:58 PM']If its posted by church militant or church scholar, its accurate we are careful about that kind of stuff around here.[/quote]


Are you sure?

[Aloysius]

Church Militants and Church Scholars can be wrong, obviously. Church Militants are labelled as such because it is clear they recognize the right authorities and attempt to conform what they say to those authorities; Church Scholars are all that plus they have a degree in theology or some other religious subject, if they have some religious training. but they can both be wrong, of course, but they are simply more trustworthy in that phatmass observes that they do their best to be faithful to the Magisterium.

nobody's perfect; I could be wrong, hot stuff could be wrong, dUSt himself could be wrong on something (gasp!)..,

[nkkh]

God is loving and forgiving. I think that if you do accept Jesus into your life, and live a good honest straight life, missing mass won't beaver dam you to anywhere.

I have a hard time believing that God would really beaver dam a soul for missing a mass.

Edited March 11, 2009 by nkkh

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1803213' date='Mar 10 2009, 10:51 PM']nobody's perfect; I could be wrong, hot stuff could be wrong, dUSt himself could be wrong on something (gasp!)..,[/quote]

I could but I choose not to be wrong

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1803096' date='Mar 10 2009, 08:55 PM']That there are different levels of gravity among mortal sins, and corresponding greater and lesser levels of pain or punishment in hell has ALWAYS been the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I'll repeat some of the key sources quoted earlier:


From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm[/url]
(I'd recommend reading the entire article.)



This teaching of the Church is reiterated in the Baltimore Catechism (which was the official Catechism for use in the U.S.):



Obviously, there are different pains of hell because some mortal sins are worse than others, and thus receive greater punishment.
A just God does not arbitrarily assign different pains of hell just for the *hell* of it; it is to satisfy justice.

If you really want to get into the theology of this, St. Thomas Aquinas goes into great length explaining how and why not all sins (even all mortal sins) are equal.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article2"][b]Summa Theologica: Question 73. The comparison of one sin with another[/b][/url]
(Sorry, too much in there to quote, but I [i]strongly[/i] recommend reading it.)

St. Thomas and St. Augustine, as well as all the other Fathers of the Church, [i]clearly[/i] taught that not all mortal sins are equal.

This is just common sense, too.
Do you really think a kid who masturbates, or steals fifty bucks, is just as guilty and deserving of the exact same degree of eternal punishment as someone who orders genocide?

Be honest.

The politically-correct assertion made by some contemporary self-styled "theologians" that all mortal sins are of equal gravity, and that none receive greater punishment in hell than others contradicts 2000 years of Catholic theology, and is NOWHERE decreed by the Church.

This debate is finished.[/quote]

Funny

The fact that there are different types punishments in hell in no way shape or form states that there are different levels of mortal sin.

Anyone trying to suggest otherwise is pulling it out of their thin air.

The result of mortal sin is this: To be removed from grace completely. If soc would like to explain how some people are removed from grace while others are really really really removed, he can go ahead and do that.

However he cannot quote one source that states this.

Now you can finish the debate.

[XIX]

Dude. Jamie.

You lost the debate. And you're starting to look ridiculous now.

[Jaime]

[quote name='XIX' post='1804001' date='Mar 11 2009, 06:18 PM']Dude. Jamie.

You lost the debate. And you're starting to look ridiculous now.[/quote]


Based on what per se IXX?

[XIX]

Because Socrates just explained the different punishments for mortal sins and backed it with Church teaching, and you act like he hasn't provided you with such.

It's getting a bit laughable. Seriously, what premise do you have left? Do you think that God decides to punish people differently for having the same level of guilt?

Do you think that 5,000 mortal sins are the same as one?

Did you just not read anything that Socrates said?



I'm completely lost. No clue why you are still holding onto your viewpoint.

As far as looking ridiculous, saying that "you choose to be correct" as if the rest of us choose to be wrong...that really doesn't help your cause.

[Aloysius]

I suppose we haven't gone the route of numbers, actually. if all mortal sins are equal, are ten mortal sins worse than one mortal sin? perhaps such a distinction would save the idea of each mortal sin being equal, but it would also seem inconsistent to the argument that you can't be more or less degrees completely cut of from God's grace.

which is why I say that though mortal sin completely cuts one off from the grace of God, some damage the soul more than others (as the Council of Trent said the last two of the decalogue can damage the soul more than the others) and therefore the soul experiences his separation from God worse than others.

it is like two clay jugs filled with water, the water is grace and the jug is the soul. every mortal sin dumps out the water, but some put smaller cracks in the jug than others, and an accumulation of cracks could even shatter the jug completely. through confession the water comes back, through indulgence and other graces the jug is repared so it can better hold the water; but each mortal sin might damage the jug itself to varying degrees, though they take the same amount of water out of the jug.

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1803971' date='Mar 11 2009, 04:42 PM']I could but I choose not to be wrong[/quote]

[Bubblicious]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801552' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:30 PM']Ok. So the Pope kicks a cat and falls into mortal sin (just the first thing that came to mind) and I kick a cat and fall into mortal sin, the Pope's sin is greater because of his knowledge etc?[/quote]

So this is way off topic and completely irrelevant, but reading that just made me laugh out loud.
(I needed a laugh today . . . thanks, Hassan.)

The Pope LOVES cats! He'd never kick one!

Edited March 12, 2009 by Bubblicious

[Socrates]

In the Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas states that not all sins are equal and gives eight ways in which sins vary from one another in gravity.
[quote]On the contrary, Our Lord said to Pilate (John 19:11): "He that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin," and yet it is evident that Pilate was guilty of some sin. Therefore one sin is greater than another.[/quote]

[b][i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article2"]Question 73. The comparison of one sin with another[/url][/i][/b]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article1"] 1. Are all sins and vices connected with one another?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article2"]2. Are all equal?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article3"]3. Does the gravity of sin depend on its object?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article4"]4. Does it depend on the excellence of the virtue to which it is opposed[/url]?
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article5"]5. Are carnal sins more grievous than spiritual sins?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article6"]6. Does the gravity of sins depend on their causes?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article7"]7. Does it depend on their circumstances?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article8"] 8. Does it depend on how much harm ensues?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article9"]9. Does it depend on the position of the person sinned against?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm#article10"] 10. Is sin aggravated by reason of the excellence of the person sinning?[/url]

The Angelic Doctor goes into great detail explaining how and why different sins vary in gravity, and he is not just talking mortal vs. venial sin. Many of the comparisons are between different mortal sins - ie. murder vs blasphemy, fornication vs. murder.

From Article 3:[quote]Thus it is clear that external things are directed to man as their end, while man is further directed to God as his end. [b]Wherefore a sin which is about the very substance of man, e.g. murder, is graver than a sin which is about external things, e.g. theft; and graver still is a sin committed directly against God, e.g. unbelief, blasphemy, and the like: and in each of these grades of sin, one sin will be graver than another according as it is about a higher or lower principle[/b]. And forasmuch as sins take their species from their objects, the difference of gravity which is derived from the objects is first and foremost, as resulting from the species.[/quote]

From Article 7:[quote]thus fornication is the intercourse of a man with one who is not his wife: but if to this be added the circumstance that the latter is the wife of another, the sin is drawn to another kind of sin, viz. injustice, in so far as he usurps another's property;[b] and in this respect adultery is a more grievous sin than fornication[/b][/quote].
(just a couple examples).

The Angelic Doctor has quite a bit more authority in my book than any phatmass "scholar."