Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Jaime]

[quote name='XIX' post='1802006' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:37 PM']Pardon me if I misinterpret, but you've been defending the "all mortal sins are equal" viewpoint for quite some while. Aren't you doing the same thing as you accuse Aloysius of in terms of taking a viewpoint that hasn't been explicitly stated by the Church? The Church hasn't said either way...at least not based on anything I read in this thread.

But if I overlooked something, then by all means...[/quote]

I've defended that viewpoint because its what the Church teaches. And I'm not doing the same thing Al's doing because the Church says

[quote]Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. [b]It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell,[/b] for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.[/quote]

You lose all grace. You're cut off from God. It doesn't say some mortal sins you're really really cut off from God. It says mortal sin removes all sanctifying grace(paraphrase). I've always stated exactly what the Church has taught. The punishment for all mortal sin is the same.

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1802077' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:45 PM']I've defended that viewpoint because its what the Church teaches. And I'm not doing the same thing Al's doing because the Church says



You lose all grace. You're cut off from God. It doesn't say some mortal sins you're really really cut off from God. It says mortal sin removes all sanctifying grace(paraphrase). I've always stated exactly what the Church has taught. The punishment for all mortal sin is the same.[/quote]



"From Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma...

The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one's guilt (Sent. communis.)

The Union Council of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments (poenis tamen disparibus puniendas). This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin (poena damni) and of personal sins (poena damni and poena sensus) but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins.

[b]Jesus threatens the inhabitants of Corazain and Bethsaida, on account of their slowness to repent, with stricter judgment than the dwellers in Tyre and Sidon (Mt. 11:22). The Scribes are subject to particularly strict judgment (Luke 20:47).[/b]
St. Augustine teaches: "In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others" (Enchir. III). Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt. "

[XIX]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1802077' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:45 PM']I've defended that viewpoint because its what the Church teaches. And I'm not doing the same thing Al's doing because the Church says



You lose all grace. You're cut off from God. It doesn't say some mortal sins you're really really cut off from God. It says mortal sin removes all sanctifying grace(paraphrase). I've always stated exactly what the Church has taught. The punishment for all mortal sin is the same.[/quote]
That's a big stretch. Stating that all mortal sin cuts you off from God's grace is the same as saying all mortal sins carry equal gravity? That's definitely not church teaching--rather, it is your personal extrapolation of church teaching.

You can't possibly expect me to believe that. In fact, it only supports what I'm arguing--the Church doesn't explicitly state whether all mortal sins are equal. If anything, Aloysius's interpretation is the one that makes sense. You are just trying to connect dot 1 straight to dot 47, and most of us aren't buying it.

"All mortal sins cut you off from the grace of God"

is not the same as

"All mortal sins are punished the same"



"'Pod A' and 'Pod B' both contain 1 2 and 3"

is not the same as

"Pod A = Pod B"



"All of these criminals are on death row"

=/=

"All of these criminals are being punished the same"

ergo...

"all of these people are in Hell"

=/=

"All of these people are suffering identical tortures"



To be frank, I can't understand how you miss this. Unless I'm missing something extremely obvious.

[johnnydigit]

i don't know the correct answer but i found this,


Degrees Of Sin
"Our Lord said to Pilate (John 19:11): 'He that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin,' and yet it is evident that Pilate was guilty of some sin. Therefore one sin is greater than another.

Therefore it matters much to the gravity of a sin whether one departs more or less from the rectitude of reason: and accordingly we must say that sins are not all equal.

To commit sin is unlawful on account of some inordinateness therein: wherefore those which contain a greater inordinateness are more unlawful, and consequently graver sins." - St. Thomas Aquinas ("Summa Theologica" 13th century A.D.)

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." - 1 John 5:16-17

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - John 19:11

"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous..." - Genesis 18:20

"Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done." - Genesis 20:9

"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." - Exodus 21:12

"And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed." - Exodus 21:15-19
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." - Exodus 21:22

"If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." - Exodus 22:1

"If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double. If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution. If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution." - Exodus 22:4-6

"And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins." - Exodus 22:16-17

"Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." - Exodus 22:19

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Degrees Of Sin:"

1854. "Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, [Cf. 1 Jn 5:16-17.] became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience."

1855. "Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it. "

1856. "Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation: When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery.... But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial. [St. Thomas Aquinas, Su Th I-II, 88, 2, corp. art.] "

1862. "One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent."

1863. "Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. 'Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.' [John Paul II, RP 17 # 9.] While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call 'light': if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession. [St. Augustine, In ep. Jo. 1, 6: PL 35, 1982.]"

"But what presses harder upon the present question [in the Lord's command of praying for enemies and persecutors] is that saying of the apostle John, 'If any man know that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and the Lord will give life to that man who sinneth not unto death: but there is a sin unto death: not for that do I say that he should ask.' For it manifestly shows that there are some 'brethren' whom we are not commanded to pray for, whereas the Lord bids us pray even for our persecutors. Nor can this question be solved except we acknowledge, that there are some sins in brethren that are worse than the sin of enemies in persecuting." - St. Augustine of Hippo ("Homily on 1 John 5:16" 4th century A.D.)

[url="http://www.catscans.com/catholicsite/sin.htm"]http://www.catscans.com/catholicsite/sin.htm[/url]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802092' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:57 PM']"From Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma...

The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one's guilt (Sent. communis.)[/quote]

hmm I should have checked my copy before now. This would confirm those here who believe the difference in punishment is due to the individual's level of guilt. I wouldn't deny this, especially after seeing this source. Although I would have to still take Aquinas into consideration and say that the difference in punishment is due to both the inequality of the sin itself as well as the inequality of guilt from one person to another.

[rkwright]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1802122' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:26 PM']hmm I should have checked my copy before now. This would confirm those here who believe the difference in punishment is due to the individual's level of guilt. I wouldn't deny this, especially after seeing this source. Although I would have to still take Aquinas into consideration and say that the difference in punishment is due to both the inequality of the sin itself as well as the inequality of guilt from one person to another.[/quote]

Yeah its surprising we're still on this after seeing that right? I quoted that back on like page 2 or 3....

I don't think Ott is contradicting Aquinas either. They're saying pretty much the same thing.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802130' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:33 PM']Yeah its surprising we're still on this after seeing that right? I quoted that back on like page 2 or 3....

I don't think Ott is contradicting Aquinas either. They're saying pretty much the same thing.[/quote]

yeah I must have missed this if you already quoted that as it sums it up pretty good although in context with Aquinas' writing on the difference between certain grave sins.

[Hassan]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802130' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:33 PM']Yeah its surprising we're still on this after seeing that right? I quoted that back on like page 2 or 3....

I don't think Ott is contradicting Aquinas either. They're saying pretty much the same thing.[/quote]


I quoted your post.

I thought this, plus Aquinas, plus the councils would settle it. In my mind, as someone with no reason to really care and impartial, this argument was finished pages ago, before I ever came on. Why people wish to drag it out I don't know.

[rkwright]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1802133' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:35 PM']yeah I must have missed this if you already quoted that as it sums it up pretty good although in context with Aquinas' writing on the difference between certain grave sins.[/quote]

No you're cool man

I like your sede ways because you make me dig deeper. 'Respect.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802163' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:52 PM']No you're cool man

I like your sede ways because you make me dig deeper. 'Respect.[/quote]

I'm going to try and remember to check my copy of Fr. Jone's Moral Theology. He might have some good stuff on the subject, but it's back at my parent's house...

[Zoecool13]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801972' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:20 PM']Alright people, I am STILL wondering why the OP has yet to contribute.[/quote]


I've been busy today. Haven't had time to reply, but been trying to keep up with the reading. Honestly, didn't think a 10 page response would've occurred within 12 hours.

Also, I'm not sure how i feel.

They are both grave/mortal sins. So in that regard, yes, they are equal. Committing either will send you to hell, and this has been the first time i've heard of different levels of hell/heaven, and i'm not sure how much I believe of that, and need to do a lot more research and studying on it to form an opinion.

So, in my opinion, since both cause harm to one's grace, both need to be confessed to be forgiven, and both have the same outcome if not forgiven of landing oneself in Hell, yea, I'd say they're equal in the eyes of God.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1802183' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:06 PM']I'm going to try and remember to check my copy of Fr. Jone's Moral Theology. He might have some good stuff on the subject, but it's back at my parent's house...[/quote]

Great book, BTW. Not great in itself, but in that it reduced and abridged volumes of moral theology books (such as St. Alphonsus' [i]Theologia Moralis[/i]) into one compact volume.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1802265' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:11 PM']Great book, BTW. Not great in itself, but in that it reduced and abridged volumes of moral theology books (such as St. Alphonsus' [i]Theologia Moralis[/i]) into one compact volume.[/quote]

definitely. Probably the one book I go to the most when I want a quick survey on something, until I left it my parents' house.

[HisChildForever]

THE OP LIVES!

Edited March 10, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Zoecool13]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802294' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:43 AM']THE OP LIVES![/quote]


Yes, yes I do. And I thank the response from all of you as it has given me even more to think about and a lot more to study and research.