Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801946' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:55 PM']You know, for some reason I can't see the little icon pictures, I didn't catch that you "don't rep Pope" (but you're listed as Roman Catholic?).[/quote]

"rad-trad" long story. Not appropriate for this forum. You can email me if you want to know more.

[quote]CMom discussed that mortal sin kills grace in the soul (which is found in the Catechism - I neglected to post all of the text regarding mortal sin so that is my mistake, apologies) but when she spoke of the gravity of offenses, that text I [b]did[/b] include in my post.[/quote]

In my time having been on this forum, despite our religious differences, I respect much of what cmom writes. And while I always appreciate a good opportunity to illustrate the CCC's idiocy, I simply didn't see a clear reference from the CCC on this point, so I don't have an opinion one way or the other on what the CCC has to say on this topic.

On the other hand, we have a somewhat better reference by Aquinas that seems to better answer the question.


[quote]"Snippy" was an observation.[/quote]
fair enough, but as I said before I think its rather imprudent to make any such character judgments on an internet forum, unless there is far more blatant an example. But you have the right to your opinion, although I think unreasonable.


[quote]"Sweetheart" is a term of endearment, didn't you know that?[/quote]

I'll have to go with Hassan on this one .

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801951' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:04 PM']If you'd ever like to examine it rationally I'd be happy to as I still stand by my position [b]and do not understand why you consider it such a big deal.[/b][/quote]



[quote]What's wrong with comparing he to Hitler? Would it be because there is obviously a profound difference in magnitude in the immorality the two are guilty for?[/quote]

No, it would be because it is irrelevant to throw in that bit about Hitler. You could have asked the question about the teenager all by itself but you had to throw in some extreme follow-up for shock value.

[goldenchild17]

nm

Edited March 10, 2009 by goldenchild17

[Jaime]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1801772' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:26 PM']i remember reading that recption of the Eucharist can expiate (not sure if that is the right word) sins, even grave ones. If all grave sins are mortal sins, that doesn't make sense....[/quote]

Mass expiates venial sins not mortal.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801784' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:31 PM']Excuse me, but I see no such distinction.





every instance of the term "grave sin" is synonymous with the term "mortal sin":
[url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=grave+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"]http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis...Search&s=SS[/url]
[url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"]http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis...Search&s=SS[/url]

now, there is a distinction between grave matter and mortal sin, yes, but grave sin is mortal sin, because "mortal sin" refers to all sins which could potentially be mortal to the soul.

please show me where the term "grave sin" is used in a way that doesn't mean "mortal sin" CCC 1472 says that grave sin "makes us incapable of eternal life"... sounds like mortal sin to me.[/quote]

[quote]1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." [b]Anyone conscious of a grave sin [/b]must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.[/quote]

This spells it out pretty clearly Al. As you know for a sin to be mortal the person has to know its a sin and choose to do it anyway. A person can commit a grave sin without being conscious of it.

[b][/b][b][/b][quote]1860 [b]Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense[/b]. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.[/quote]

and finally to demonstrate my point

[quote]The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage. Outside of marriage it always constitutes a grave sin and excludes one from sacramental communion.[/quote]

Now within that premarital sex is always a grave sin. However, it is very possible that one or both participants had no intention of having sex and therefore it would not fulfill the criteria of mortal sin.

so according to the teachings of the Church one can commit a grave sin and NOT a mortal sin.

[Aloysius]

these distinctions do not follow at all from the quotes you have provided IMO, but seeing as another topic has been posted on this subject, let us has it out there: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91489"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91489[/url]

[HisChildForever]

Alright people, I am STILL wondering why the OP has yet to contribute.

[XIX]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1801570' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:41 PM']And the Church, no matter how you slice it does not say that there are varying degrees of mortal sin.

You want to hold that opinion, if the Church doesn't state it, you can't call it fact derived from logic.[/quote]
And the Church, no matter how you slice it does not say that there are not varying degrees of mortal sin.

Which by the way, is why common sense works in a situation like this. As opposed to your example of bread and wine turning into Jesus, where the Church speak quite clearly.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801962' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:12 PM'][/quote]

Why don't you actually respond to my position there after I corrected your flawed view for the umpteenth time?



[quote]No, it would be because it is irrelevant to throw in that bit about Hitler.[/quote]

It is hardly irrelevant

[quote]You could have asked the question about the teenager all by itself but you had to throw in some extreme follow-up for shock value.[/quote]


No, because I was not interested in the teenager himself. I was interested in wheather you would maintain that that fourteen year old deserved the same damnation as Adolf Hitler. Which would be exactly what your view would imply.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801975' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:23 PM']No, because I was not interested in the teenager himself. I was interested in wheather you would maintain that that fourteen year old deserved the same damnation as Adolf Hitler. Which would be exactly what your view would imply.[/quote]

According to the discussion at the very beginning of this thread, if they both went to Hell they would be suffering different punishments.

[Hassan]

HisChildForever.

My oppinions of Muhammad and his marriage to Aish' is not part of this debate. If you really want to revisit it your more than welcome to respond here

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90845&st=80&start=80"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...80&start=80[/url]

or start another thread on it.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801977' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:25 PM']According to the discussion at the very beginning of this thread, if they both went to Hell they would be suffering different punishments.[/quote]


Would they simply be different or would one be harsher than the other?

[Jaime]

[quote name='XIX' post='1801974' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:22 PM']And the Church, no matter how you slice it does not say that there are not varying degrees of mortal sin.

Which by the way, is why common sense works in a situation like this. As opposed to your example of bread and wine turning into Jesus, where the Church speak quite clearly.[/quote]

The Church doesn't say a lot of things. The Church doesn't say that I can eat all the ice cream I want in heaven. I may hope for that, I may think that's an ideal setting for heaven but I can't say its true because "the Church doesn't not say it".

You have to, WE HAVE TO take what the Church teaches us. We do not have the power or authority to extrapolate more than what is written. Now if you or Al or anyone else wants to hold that opinion, go for it. Its opinion. The fact remains the same that this is not what the Church teaches

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801978' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:25 PM']HisChildForever.

My oppinions of Muhammad and his marriage to Aish' is not part of this debate. If you really want to revisit it your more than welcome to respond here

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90845&st=80&start=80"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...80&start=80[/url]

or start another thread on it.[/quote]

I already dropped it Hassan. And the only reason why I stuck it in one of my posts was because you had the audacity to call my beliefs disturbing, which was incredibly ironic IMO.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801977' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:25 PM']According to the discussion at the very beginning of this thread, if they both went to Hell they would be suffering different punishments.[/quote]
and the question is why they would be suffering different punishments? because Hitler had committed the worse sin, because genocide is a worse sin than masturbation.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801980' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:26 PM']Would they simply be different or would one be harsher than the other?[/quote]

The idea is new to me so you would do better to ask someone who explained it earlier, to be truthful.