Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Zoecool13]

What are your thoughts?

[rkwright]

They're both equal in that either one could send you to hell.

[CatherineM]

One would be an easier sin to commit.

[HisChildForever]

I always was confused when it came to "mortal sin versus mortal sin." It seems crazy that murdering someone is on the same level as missing Mass on Sunday. But then I realized that you simply cannot compare mortal sins. For example missing Mass is under the category of our obligations and murder is under the category of offenses against the person/human dignity (hope I phrased that right). So you can argue missing Mass "versus" not going to Confession all year - as they are in the same category - and you can argue murder "versus" torture - again, same category. But you cannot take one mortal sin from one category and compare it to one mortal sin of a totally different category, it just does not work that way.

[dairygirl4u2c]

to me, the bigger question is whether hell is the same for everyone. does the guy who knowingly and obstinately missed mass (or pick a lesser mortal sin), get the same punishment as hitler or genocidal maniacs?
i'd argue no.
then the next question, to me, is if there's degree of hell, then, and there's degrees of heaven, as i assume, is there a gradient between the two, or is there a clear bright line between the two, and how does that work?

missing mass (assuming it's mortal sin, to me anyway, a noncatholic) is easier to do, and perhaps given lots of factors one could conjure, might affect one's culpability easier per their intentoin to sin. it's hard to say 'i didn't know, or wasn't sure, or X excuse' murder someone cause it's so hardwired into our being, it's not debatable in any sense.

i'm not sure besides the culpability stuff, what else there is to ask about. per Catholic Church teaching, both are mortal sins deserving of hell if done intentioanlly with no mitigating factors. that's why i ask the other questions above.
basically, hisangel is right and it can't be compared. so the question is, if it can't be compared, what are the practical implications of that? where ya start talking about culpability, and what isaid bout punishment. im not sure what else there is to talk about.

well, i guess theres: 1. it seems like the author of this thread wants someone to say "yes, even missing mass will get ya to hell, just like murder will" cause it's so profound of a statement. or 2. i guess maybe he wants to hear people say "one offends God more" than the other or "both offend God the same" cause the later would be pretty profound if true. or 3. even though there's degrees of offense to one sin than the other, there's no degree of punishment (as i was getting to above)

Edited March 9, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1801356' date='Mar 9 2009, 01:24 PM']to me, the bigger question is whether hell is the same for everyone. does the guy who knowingly and obstinately missed mass (or pick a lesser mortal sin), get the same punishment as hitler or genocidal maniacs?[/quote]

There is a complete absence of God in Hell which is what the souls suffer from. They are in absolute torment because they know they will never again feel God (we get a taste of this on earth - feeling God's presence) nor will they live in eternity with Him. Their own sin has cast them into Hell and this, too, they mourn over (but in their pride assume it is all God's fault and/or they did nothing wrong and/or they do not deserve this treatment). Therefore Hell is the same for every soul. Obviously some may be thinking about their lives - if indeed it is possible to think in such a terrible place of pain - but overall they all know that God will never be present to them.

There is no such thing as a "lesser" mortal sin.

Edited March 9, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Winchester]

Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder...

[rkwright]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801365' date='Mar 9 2009, 12:34 PM']There is a complete absence of God in Hell which is what the souls suffer from. They are in absolute torment because they know they will never again feel God (we get a taste of this on earth - feeling God's presence) nor will they live in eternity with Him. Their own sin has cast them into Hell and this, too, they mourn over (but in their pride assume it is all God's fault and/or they did nothing wrong and/or they do not deserve this treatment). [i][b]Therefore Hell is the same for every soul.[/b][/i] Obviously some may be thinking about their lives - if indeed it is possible to think in such a terrible place of pain - but overall they all know that God will never be present to them.

There is no such thing as a "lesser" mortal sin.[/quote]

Source?

The Catholic Encyclopedia says....

Characteristics of the pains of hell

(1) The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment -- all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm[/url]

[Aloysius]

There are different levels of heaven according to Jesus Christ Himself, as He refers to who will be greatest and who will be least in heaven. it follows from logic and justice that there are different levels of hell.

there are certainly varying degrees of mortal sins.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801417' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:18 PM']there are certainly varying degrees of mortal sins.[/quote]

Cite the teaching please

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1801415' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:16 PM']Source?[/quote]

[b]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]
Link: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV[/url]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 [u]The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/u]

Compared to what I said:
[b]There is a complete absence of God in Hell which is what the souls suffer from. They are in absolute torment because they know they will never again feel God (we get a taste of this on earth - feeling God's presence) nor will they live in eternity with Him.[/b]

And I said that while all souls suffer this knowledge, each [b]individual[/b] soul experiences it a different way (I said that [b]their [u]own[/u] sin[/b] cast them into Hell) and acknowledges it a different way (I said [b]in their pride assume it is all God's fault [u]and/or[/u] they did nothing wrong [u]and/or[/u] they do not deserve this treatment[/b]).

Obviously I "sugar-coated" it by not including words such as "a more intense hatred of God" - as I said [b]in their pride assume it is all God's fault[/b] - and "a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment" - where I said [b]Their own sin has cast them into Hell and this, too, they mourn over[/b].

[b][u]Therefore Hell is the same for every soul.[/u][/b]
Meaning:
1. All souls suffer from the complete absence of God
2. All souls agonize over their own sin (which brought them to Hell)

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801417' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:18 PM']there are certainly varying degrees of mortal sins.[/quote]

This is not true. Like I said earlier, there are different [b]categories[/b] but mortal sin is mortal sin.

[Aloysius]

I cite logic. Why don't you cite a teaching that says there are not varying degrees of mortal sin? We both cite our own logical conclusions based upon the teachngs in place; I think your conclusions are wrong. I'm pretty sure we've danced this dance before, though...

also, the Council of Florence states that there are varying degrees of punishment in hell:
"But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains." There are indeed unequal pains in hell.

[rkwright]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801434' date='Mar 9 2009, 01:39 PM'][b]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]
Link: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV[/url]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 [u]The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/u]

Compared to what I said:
[b]There is a complete absence of God in Hell which is what the souls suffer from. They are in absolute torment because they know they will never again feel God (we get a taste of this on earth - feeling God's presence) nor will they live in eternity with Him.[/b]

And I said that while all souls suffer this knowledge, each [b]individual[/b] soul experiences it a different way (I said that [b]their [u]own[/u] sin[/b] cast them into Hell) and acknowledges it a different way (I said [b]in their pride assume it is all God's fault [u]and/or[/u] they did nothing wrong [u]and/or[/u] they do not deserve this treatment[/b]).

Obviously I "sugar-coated" it by not including words such as "a more intense hatred of God" - as I said [b]in their pride assume it is all God's fault[/b] - and "a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment" - where I said [b]Their own sin has cast them into Hell and this, too, they mourn over[/b].

[b][u]Therefore Hell is the same for every soul.[/u][/b]
Meaning:
1. All souls suffer from the complete absence of God
2. All souls agonize over their own sin (which brought them to Hell)[/quote]

You're only discussing half of the punishment of hell. The chief punishment is separation from God, but there is also a "pain of sense".

You're really extrapolating out from what you said earlier, and your conclusion (hell is the same for every soul) isn't found in the CCC. The Catholic Encyclopedia says it flat out: The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss.

[Aloysius]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

firstly, this states that that is the "chief" punishment of hell, not the only punishment of hell. it is long established that there are other punishments of hell. also, this does not contradict what the Catholic encyclopedia explained about how people in hell can even experience varying degrees of this chief punishment, ie how people experience different degrees of that same separation from God: "A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment -- all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God."