Do You Really Respect God?

[M.SIGGA]

Please read the Qur'ann.

It seems that many Christians believe Islam, Judaism, and Christianity share a faith in the one God, but to me it seems the Muslims think otherwise, and they have always thought otherwise. Look to the Qur'aan for historical evidence, which says Christians and Jews have long held this belief, and Muslims have long rejected this sense of unity:

[color=red]They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their priests to be their lords besides Allâh (Qur'aan 9:31)[/color]

But from a Judeo-Christian perspective, how can this be the voice of God the Trinity, whom we ALL Christians know and worship? Note: Islam literally means "the Way" or "the Right Path."

[color=red]Truly, the religion with Allâh is Islâm. [b]Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, then surely, Allâh is Swift in calling to account. [/b](Qur'aan 3:19)

[1] Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and among Pagans, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.

[b][2] A Messenger (Muhammad) from Allâh, reciting (the Qur'ân) purified pages

[3] Containing correct and straight laws from Allâh.[/b]

[4] And the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) differed not until after there came to them clear evidence. (i.e. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and whatever was revealed to him).

[b][5] And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allâh, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him)[/b], and perform Prayers and give Charity: and that is the right religion.

[b][6]Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur'ân and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and pagans will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.[/b][/color]

[7] Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allâh, and in His Messenger Muhammad (pbuh)) including all obligations ordered by Islâm] and do righteous good deeds, they are the best of creatures.

[8] Their reward with their Lord is Eden Paradise (Gardens of Eternity), underneath which rivers flow, they will abide therein forever, Allâh Well-Pleased with them, and they with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord.

(Qur'ân 98)

[b][85] And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will NEVER be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. [86] How shall Allâh guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? [/b]And Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers). [87] They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allâh, of the angels, and of all mankind. [88] They will abide therein (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while). (Qur’an 3:85-88)

I have family that is Muslim and I studied Islam in college and I came to the same conclusion as Bruce S, especially after learning about the history of the Ka’aba at Mecca. Reading the Qur'ann for myself has also lead to these conclusions.

For the record, the expulsion of Spanish Muslims and Jews was an error of the times of sinful people and has nothing to do with Christian Doctrines revealed by the Catholic Church. The Qur'ann specifically calls out "people of Scripture" meaning Christians and Jews to burn in hell. Protestants weren't exactly Jewish/Muslim friendly during the Renaissance and if there was a Protestant kingdom on the North African/Mediterannean border the same intolerance would have been demonstrated.

I'm not saying Muslims ignorant of the Gospel burn in hell, but as a Christian, there is the one true God of Israel Yhwh Elohim, revealed in the Bible, who made the Jews his chosen people, and from this root came Jesus Christ, God's Son, and our Lord and Savior.

[Winchester]

Ayed, please accept my heartfelt bitten thumb directed unto your personage.
You vomit forth your "in fact three gods" statement with an utter lack of regard for the various arguments and explanations previously proffered to you. You beaver dam well know we don't believe in more than one God, yet you stubbornly returneth to your well-masticated sermon.
I find myself again tired of your smarmy and backhanded appeals for "open-mindedness" and wishes of peace. Have at it with insults, but do not feign civility and respect, please. I have said my piece before, and I repeat it in hopes that the bluntness of my words will shock you into paying some damned attention.

[Winchester]

As a bump and yet another jab, I beg you to quit using those insipid little hearts to cloak your condescending "questions".

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Mar 23 2004, 02:43 PM'] Popestpiusx,

No offense, but taking a few little verses without context doesn't show anything. I'm not defending the Koran or Islam, but to say it can't be done in Christian Scripture is not true.

Joshua 6:21
They observed the ban by putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and asses.

or Genesis 19:30-33
Since Lot was afraid to stay in Zoar, he and his two daughters went up from Zoar and settled in the hill country, where he lived with his two daughters in a cave.
The older one said to the younger: "Our father is getting old, and there is not a man on earth to unite with us as was the custom everywhere.
Come, let us ply our father with wine and then lie with him, that we may have offspring by our father."
So that night they plied their father with wine, and the older one went in and lay with her father; but he was not aware of her lying down or her getting up.

Let's not forget that David had a child out of wedlock and had Uriah killed. Or that Moses disobeyed God and was kept out of the promised land. Or the whole Isreal conquest. [/quote]
Dojo,
what you quoted, while still the inspired word of God, is of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant. You would have to find something in the New Testament to justify what you said. This is not possible. You can't even find anything in Church Teaching that would justify it. There are many such quotations in the Qu'ran and the entire history of Islam is a testament to that fact. It is a bloodsoaked religion.

[mulls]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Mar 25 2004, 12:07 AM'] Ayed, please accept my heartfelt bitten thumb directed unto your personage.
You vomit forth your "in fact three gods" statement with an utter lack of regard for the various arguments and explanations previously proffered to you. You beaver dam well know we don't believe in more than one God, yet you stubbornly returneth to your well-masticated sermon.
I find myself again tired of your smarmy and backhanded appeals for "open-mindedness" and wishes of peace. Have at it with insults, but do not feign civility and respect, please. I have said my piece before, and I repeat it in hopes that the bluntness of my words will shock you into paying some damned attention. [/quote]
that's absolutely horrible dude

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Christians see Jesus as a son of God , and the Holy Spirit as a God.So, they worship God “and Jesus “and the Holy Spirit. In fact, They are three Gods not one .Catholics have to pass through more than 30 steps , confirming and negatung the three Gods so as to assert that they have only one God.[/quote]

First, Christians see Jesus not only as the Son of God, but as God Himself. The Holy Spirit, likewise, is God. Imagine a pool of water. That water, all of it, falls into another pool of water. It is still the same water, but it is in a different pool. Now that water pours from that pool into another. It is still the same water, but it is in yet a different pool. Now, let's imagine if those three pools had water running constantly from one to the other, then to the third, then back to the first. Let's also imagine that these pools are of an infinite amount of water and that they exist outside of time. Because they are outside of time, and of an infinite amount of water, this would mean that the entire supply of water could exist in each of the pools at the exact same point (a point outside of time...sort of like a single, everlasting moment). This is similar to the Trinity. The water is like the essence of God, divinity. The pools are like the Three Persons. The fullness of divinity can exist in each of the Three Persons all at the same moment. They are each fully God and they are all of the same essence. This means that there is only one God, in Three Persons.

This metaphor isn't perfect (none can be), but it's good enough.

[quote]Now ,open up your limited minds for the following subtopics:[/quote]

I will open my admittedly limited mind as requested.

[quote]1-When one of you receive , welcome and greet me at his own house, he will warmly accompany and usher me to sit in the setting room NOT in the bathroom?Why?[/quote]

Of course I would. Why on earth would I want you to sit in the bathroom?

[quote]2-When a president of a counrty is received and welcomed in another country,he is accompanied by the host president .They both will walk on a protocol long red carpet NOT on the bare ground ?Why?[/quote]

Because that leader is of a great rank and majesty.

[quote]3-There was a large swimming pool brimmed with blood, placentas , and imbilical cords .If one of you was asked to dive into that swimming pool just for “9 minutes” and he will be given one million US dollar ,will he do so?NO.Why?And what are the deterrent reasons?[/quote]

Actually, I probably would do it for a million dollars for charity, but that's beside the point...

Okay, actually, it's not beside the point, but I'll get to that in a minute.

[quote]4-If I asked one of you :”Do you venerate and respect God?”.The answer will be”Yes”.[/quote]

Absolutely.

[quote]5-Well ! Re-think of the following :
---Don’t you degrade our God when you consider Jesus as a God kept in his mother’s womb for “9 months”?
--Don’t you undervalue our God when imagining him wrapped up by the fetal membrane?
--Don’t you belittle our God when imagining him submerged into fluids and his face was wholly covered with the caul?
--Don’t you dishonor our God when eating bread soaked in wine as Jesus’ flesh and the food goes through metabolism and excreted out of your body , eventually?[/quote]

And here is where I explain why my willingness to swim in a vat of placenta for charity for 9 minutes is relevant.

We sin. That is just what we do. But God loves us so much that He sent His only Son into the world to save us from our sins. God loves us so much that He was willing to take on flesh (ironic that I am posting this on the Annunciation) so that He could be an offering for our sins. Any offense against God is infinitely terrible. Nothing in creation can cover for it and repay the debt. Not even all of creation. Not even Mary. God, however, who is infinite, can repay the debt by giving Himself as a sin offering. God loves us so much and God wants us to be with Him so much that He Himself willingly took on the horrors of this world to repay the Father for all of our sins. God became humble. God humbled Himself.

The Bible tells us these two relevant things:

[quote]For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [/quote]

[quote]but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.  And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!  Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee must bend...[/quote]

And now, I'll say it. Because I have in me the love of Christ, because I love Christ and because I love by brethren because of Christ and in Christ, I would swim even in a vat of placenta to benefit any one of them, just as Christ not only stayed in placenta for nine months, but also was scourged, beaten, laden with a heavy burden, and killed on Calvary. Not only that, but He died. And He descended into the place of the dead; that is how low He was willing to go for our sake.

In the Love of Christ,
Raphael, Peccator et Servus Dei.

Edited March 26, 2004 by Raphael

[p0lar_bear]

Everyone---

We need to treat Ayed with a [i]lot[/i] more respect than has been demonstrated by several of the posters here. Answer his questions, don't just attack him and write him off. If he wants to dialogue, have enough respect for him to do just that.



Ayed,

In a way you are right. It would be horribly, grossly, and unjustifiably presumptious for us to insist that God become man. We had absolutely no right to expect that. The thing is, we don't say that God did these things because He had to or that man had any ability to direct God in this. We are saying that God, in His infinite wisdom and love chose this path from all eternity. Until it happened, the thought that God could really become man was blasphemous, but God chose this path, He did it. We are not proclaiming what God should do, but what He, of His own initiative, already did.

On your example of the pool full of blood and placenta.....If your beloved child was drowing in that pool, would you not willingly jump in to save him? That is what Christ did. He did something that in so many ways was soooo beneath Him. He allowed himself to be limited to a human body and nature. He did this to save us because He loves us.


We only have the right to say these things about God because He actually did them. It would have been presumptious and blasphemous for a young Moses to say that God must use him to free His people from Egypt. However, after God did speak to him and send him to lead His people to the promised land, it would have been blasphemous and sinful for Moses to walk away or to deny what God had done. In the same way it would have been blasphemous to say that God would become man before it actually happened, and it is blasphemous to deny it now that it did happen.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='mulls' date='Mar 25 2004, 04:56 PM'] that's absolutely horrible dude [/quote]
i agree.

winchester, you've been warned

[ayed]

In The name of Allah , the Most gracious , the Most merciful .

Praise and thanks be to Allah.

Sorry for being late and thank you for your responses . I sometimes notice the following :
--When I pose a question or an issue , it always end up at a fruitless inerminable debate.
--When someone poses allegation or a wrong stereotype , he does not back up his words.Thus, it is groundless.

--Digression or an irrelevant question interposed by a discussant may spoil the issue pending discussion .Please let us discuss this topic only .If someone has a special question or topic , he had better pose it under another one.
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Mr.M.SIGGA:”They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their priests to be their lords besides Allâh (Qur'aan 9:31)”

(Ayed):Please complete the whole verse:
Allah says:”They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allâh (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allâh), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilâh (God - Allâh) Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)"

Mr.M.SIGGA :”…the expulsion of Spanish Muslims and Jews was an error of the times of sinful people and has nothing to do with Christian Doctrines revealed by the Catholic Church”.

(Ayed):This is another issue and can be separately discussed if you wish .

>>What Mr.Bruce S and you have said are still groundless unless proved logically.That is, to give a verse or a line of a book.


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(Mr.Winchester ) wrote:”Ayed, please accept my heartfelt bitten thumb directed unto your personage.You vomit forth your "in fact three gods" statement with an utter lack of regard for the various arguments and explanations previously proffered to you. You beaver dam well know we don't believe in more than one God, yet you stubbornly returneth to your well-masticated sermon.I find myself again tired of your smarmy and backhanded appeals for "open-mindedness" and wishes of peace. Have at it with insults, but do not feign civility and respect, please. I have said my piece before, and I repeat it in hopes that the bluntness of my words will shock you into paying some damned attention”

(Ayed):Thank you, Mr.Winchester for your response.It seems that your golden fingertips have messed up while typing or some keys of the Keyboard have jammed.You are welcomed as a new Phatmass peer, man.
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Mr.Raphael Thank you for chopping and explaining my topic.

(Raphael):”Because that leader is of a great rank and majesty.”

>>(Ayed):Isn’t God of the greatest rank and of the highest Majesty?Then why do you insist that He got into Mary’s womb as a fetus trembling into blood and fluid?

(Raphael):” …He sent His only Son into the world to save us from our sins”
>>(Ayed):Let us parse the sentence :
--“He” is the nominative case ,the does of the action.
--“Sent”is a transitive verb must have an object,
--“ son”is the direct object, the recipient.
So, there are tow identities NOT one .

(Raphael):”…God loves us so much that He was willing to take on flesh so that He could be an offering for our sins.
>>(Ayed):God , Mary’s Maker minimized Himself to be a fetus in her!
--Where was the Father at that moment?
--Where was the Holy Spirit?
--What happen to the universe during 9 months when the Word got flesh?
(Raphael):”…Christ not only stayed in placenta for nine months, but also was scourged, beaten, laden with a heavy burden, and killed…”

>>(Ayed):Then why do you say :
--Jesus is all-powerful while he was beaten,scourged and killed?
--the saver while he was scourged ?
--And he is eternal while he was killed and died for thre days?
These are contradictions.Thus, far be it from our Supreme God, Allah, to be in these conditions.Allah”God” is above all what we say.What good then of saying Almighty while one say he walked on the earth?Or became flesh?

Special thanks to Mr.Polar bear for his kind response.

Thank you all.


Ayed

[popestpiusx]

Do I get no comment? I feel so very left out.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[i]*walks in..... #confused # .....walks back out*[/i]

Since you've all very gracefully handled Winny's comments I guess there's not much point in detelting them now....

[jmjtina]

May the Peace of Christ, the Only Son of God be with you, Ayed.

I'm just wondering.....what does the Muslim faith teach about self-sacrifice and suffering? Is it just because we have done something wrong that we suffer? or that a child of God (who we all are) can suffer and have setbacks and be innocent? If humility and self-sacrificing isn't a factor, then what examples of self-sacrificing and self-giving do you have? and if there isn't any "self-sacrificing love" is it dominance that plays the role?

Do you also think that Jesus could not be God because, "God was and is powerful enough to protect Him from such a fate. Or did we Christians not believe in God’s power?"

From my small perspective of this, the biggest difference we have to over-come to understand each other is what truly is your faith, if ours is about humility and self-sacrificing love? Because that is truly what the Crucifixition is, love. That is the power of the Cross, Jesus' life, the Son of God who came down to teach his children how to live.

and also, we do not have three Gods. All are one.

Peace and God Bless
Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us!

also, i hope other phatmassers can pick up the convo, cause lately, i've been a busy bee.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]>>(Ayed):Isn’t God of the greatest rank and of the highest Majesty?Then why do you insist that He got into Mary’s womb as a fetus trembling into blood and fluid?[/quote]

Well, my friend, this may not be easily understood by someone who does not grow up with the same kind of childhood I had. As a child, I was taught that it was worth it to get hurt in the place of others, even to be humbled to help save others. Consider that God loves us so much that He is WILLING to be humbled even so much to enter into creation. Doesn't that at least show how devoted God is to us and our well-being? That's a very humble thing for God to do.

What's more, Catholics don't believe that material, even blood and placental matter, is intrinsically evil. In fact, I think blood is one of the most intrinsically holy things there is. Blood has always been seen as what sustains life.

[quote](Raphael):” …He sent His only Son into the world to save us from our sins”
>>(Ayed):Let us parse the sentence :
--“He” is the nominative case ,the does of the action.
--“Sent”is a transitive verb must have an object,
--“ son”is the direct object, the recipient.
So, there are tow identities NOT one .[/quote]

You are correct. They are two separate persons. Two of the Three Persons of the Trinity. Two of the Three Persons of the One God.

[quote](Raphael):”…God loves us so much that He was willing to take on flesh so that He could be an offering for our sins.
>>(Ayed):God , Mary’s Maker minimized Himself to be a fetus in her!
--Where was the Father at that moment?
--Where was the Holy Spirit?
--What happen to the universe during 9 months when the Word got flesh?
(Raphael):”…Christ not only stayed in placenta for nine months, but also was scourged, beaten, laden with a heavy burden, and killed…”[/quote]

The Father was in heaven, primarily. The Holy Spirit was overshadowing Mary, primarily. I say "primarily" because we believe that God is omnipresent.

As for what happened to the universe, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit (Two of the Three Persons of the One God) were not in creation, so, even from the standpoint that Christ stopped being God (which isn't the case) you could say that They still ran things.

However, Christ didn't stop being God when He took on humanity. Christ was both fully human and fully God at the same time. Christ was always with the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are One, Inseparable Being.

[quote]>>(Ayed):Then why do you say :
--Jesus is all-powerful while he was beaten,scourged and killed?
--the saver while he was scourged ?
--And he is eternal while he was killed and died for thre days?
These are contradictions.Thus, far be it from our Supreme God, Allah, to be in these conditions.Allah”God” is above all what we say.What good then of saying Almighty while one say he walked on the earth?Or became flesh?[/quote]

These are not contradictions. Rather, these are paradoxes. Paradoxes have solutions that are impossible for us to understand.

Jesus is all-powerful, but that does not mean that He had to use that power. He willingly allowed Himself to be killed so that a greater good, salvation, could come about.

The Prophet Isaiah said, "By His stripes, we are healed." This has to do with the Scourging. Jesus allowed Himself to be scourged. He allowed Himself to be beaten and killed because by His death, He would become the perfect sacrifice to God. In becoming the perfect sacrifice, He gave us salvation.

That Christ died for three days is not a contradiction. To say that He died is not to say that He stopped existing. That couldn't happen. God can't stop existing. But Christ's Soul could leave His Body. That is what happens at death.

God is, by His very nature, above all creation. But God is also all-powerful and all-loving. These two things allow for God to enter into creation. Entering into creation was the only way that He could save us, which, being all-loving, He wanted to do. It was the only way that He could save us, which, being all-powerful, He was able to do.

To say that God wouldn't be willing to do this for us is to deny His mercy. To say that He couldn't is to deny His omnipotence.

Edited March 27, 2004 by Raphael

[IcePrincessKRS]

Raphael, wonderful post.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote] Raphael, wonderful post.[/quote]

Why, thank you, o gracious Princess Bling Bling!

Edited March 27, 2004 by Raphael