Bruce S Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 (edited) One of the ongoing discussions I have with dear Catholic friends is the FEAR that most Catholics have over getting into heaven. It would seem, that unlike most Protestants, our dear Catholics live in dread of actually making it into heaven, or even more oddly [to the Protestant mindset] spending forever in "Purgatory" buring off those remaining "imperfections" prior to admission to the pearly gates. I offer this topic, with a sincere desire to explore this aspect of our various interpretations of things. For starters, I offer the following from the CCC: [quote]Who belongs to the Catholic Church? 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320 837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, [b]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with[u] her entire organization[/u], [/b]and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.[b] Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity [[color=red]is not saved[/color]. [/b]He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321[/quote] While most practicing Protestants rest assured of salvation, thinking only that the Holy Spirit, with God's direction, will make the ELECT, those JUSTIFIED through faith alone pure in the perfection that Jesus, through his death at Calvary, perfect enough, the Catholic mind, and belief, apparently does not agree. We can explore the "Works" aspect of Church membership, and the Sacramental system as this develops. PLEASE, I'm looking for some discussion on this here, NOT a massive doc dum session, OK? So... Who goes first? Edited March 21, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 What does God call his creation to in the New Covenant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted March 21, 2004 Author Share Posted March 21, 2004 Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 CCC 838 "[b]The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are [u]honored by the name of Christian[/u][/b], but do not profess the Catholic faith in it's entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. [b]Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church[/b]. The next one helps your question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 The CCC is sounding pretty Biblical since Paul says that faith working through love/charity is what counts. Catholics are just using the Biblical language here. Maybe you should start by defining "faith" for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 [quote]Maybe you should start by defining "faith" for us[/quote]. Faith is imperfect at baptism. But after baptism it needs to be nourished and unfolded by the [b]faith[/b] of the ([b]parents godparents[/b]) and[b] the community of the Church[/b]. Faith needs to be nourished to grow. We have to be taught our Faith. You learn from those close to you (Family)! [b]We give witness and are responsiable for this task[/b]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 [quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 21 2004, 03:14 PM'] One of the ongoing discussions I have with dear Catholic friends is the FEAR that most Catholics have over getting into heaven. It would seem, that unlike most Protestants, our dear Catholics live in dread of actually making it into heaven, or even more oddly [to the Protestant mindset] spending forever in "Purgatory" buring off those remaining "imperfections" prior to admission to the pearly gates. [/quote] maybe i'm not understanding you correctly, but it seems like you're saying here that catholics would be afraid of getting into heaven. why would i fear heaven? i've heard protestants say that catholics live in constant fear of going to hell........is that what you mean? i need some clarification here. as to a constant fear of going to hell, this seems to be greatly exaggerated in the protestant mind. they seem to assume that the logical implication of no OSAS is a prevalent and all-encompassing fear of hell. i don't think this is true. first of all, a healthy fear of the Lord and of the consequences of sin is necessary for those times when temptation rears its ugly head. this catholics do possess. however, this fear doesn't debilitate us or leave us in constant worry or anxiety. this is b/c we have a hope, not an assurance, of salvation. we know that if we continue to live a life of honest and obendient faith in the Lord that heaven will be ours. through self-contemplation, discernment, and prayer we know the status of our relationship w/ the Lord. we know what sin is and the effects that it can have on this relationship. when sin wounds or severs our relationship w/ Him we seek reconciliation w/ Him so that we may be united w/ Him again. Once reconciled, our hope is restored that we will be w/ Him one day. this is the catholic life........and it is not as dreadful as some may think. [quote]While most practicing Protestants rest assured of salvation, thinking only that the Holy Spirit, with God's direction, will make the ELECT, those JUSTIFIED through faith alone pure in the perfection that Jesus, through his death at Calvary, perfect enough, the Catholic mind, and belief, apparently does not agree.[/quote] catholics too agree that the elect will be justified through faith. however, we disagree in three aspects: 1. no one can obtain an assurance of salvation until they arrive in heaven. 2. no one can know if oneself or if another person is a member of the elect until they arrive in heaven. 3. this "faith" that saves is an "obedient faith" which means that there is a component of works to faith that makes it alive (as opposed to dead) and that cannot be separated from it. if faith w/o works is dead, how can a faith w/o works ever save anyone? i guess this will do for now. since you never really gave a specific question, i wasn't too sure where u wanted to go w/ this. hopefully charity can remain as our dialogue on this topic develops. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jericho923 Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 www.catholicapologetics.org good source for our belives of salvation...which are entirely scriptural!! We were Saved, are being saved and will be saved! Not a one day reception thing..but an every day thing and a cross we msut pick up and carry following Christ, who instructed us and redeemed us! in a paththatwill lead to Heaven! May He be praised forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Bruce, is there anyway to believe in OSAS without being completely Calvinist? Just wondering if that is possible or just a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted March 21, 2004 Author Share Posted March 21, 2004 Interesting, I can easily slide from Calvinist to Arminian and AGREE with both theological teachings on any given day. Predestination, of the elect MUST be true, otherwise God isn't omnicient BUT... that would invalidate free will ... I tend to believe that we are Justified at a point in time, PERFECTION of our earthly lives follows this DECISION we make, and there is nothing, short of the the UNPARDONABLE sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirt [the rejection of God and His works and being] that can take that away. It is the continual worry that RULES AND REGULATIONS can affect your salvation that is the topic I would guess. What brought this to my mind [and remember, I'm that MASSIVE oddity, a Protestant attending daily Mass for Lent, who rejects Catholicism ] this past Friday, where the eating of meat came into my mind, reminding me of my childhood as a school atttending Catholic Church and the old Friday meat thing, being a mortal sin. So, it got me thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 You're really trying ti stir the pot aren't you Bruce? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted March 21, 2004 Author Share Posted March 21, 2004 Hey, that is what the Protestants PAY ME FOR, didn't you know that I'm a paid subversive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 So, immediate justification/salvation and inevitable santification all at the moment the person [b]decides[/b] to believe? Yet you would no doubt call the Catholic view of justification "man-centered", go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 "It is the continual worry that RULES AND REGULATIONS can affect your salvation that is the topic I would guess." You know the requirements for something to be mortal then I take it. It's not so much about rules and regulations (I know you are thinking of screaming "Pharisee!") as it about remaining obedient to God. Murder can be both veniel and mortal. Mortal requires us to basically say "I don't give a rip what you say God, I'm doing my own thing, you can keep your grace" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 [quote]short of the the UNPARDONABLE sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirt [/quote] [quote]"The sin Jesus speaks about here is termed"sin against the Holy Spirit", because external expression of God's goodness are specially attributed to the third person of the Blessed Trinity. Sin against the Holy Spirit is said to be unforgivable not so much because of it's gravity or malice but because of the subjective disposition of the sinner in this case: his attitude shuts the door on repentance. Sin against the Holy Spirit consists in maliciously attributing to the devil the miracles and signs wrought by Christ. Thus the very nature of sin blocks the persons route to Christ, who is the only one who can take away the sin of the world (JN. 1:29), and the sinner puts himself outside the range of God's forgiveness. In this sense the sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven."[/quote] Commentary: NAVARRE BIBLE, on the correct interpretation! God Bless Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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