cmotherofpirl Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1800746' date='Mar 8 2009, 09:38 PM']If you want to explain this over again to every single other person from another religion that you talk to in an interfaith/interreligious setting, then go for it. I think our point is that very very few people even realize the connotations of a secular version of the word faith versus a Christian understanding. So yea, if it's that important to you, then you should probably explain it to everyone you meet why you refuse to say they have "faith".[/quote] You can say they don't have "the" faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 or we as Catholics could speak correctly with the term "interreligious" dialogue. this is more important of a distinction within Catholic circles... and since we are here and now discussing what exactly ecumenism and that type of stuff is from a Catholic perspective, I thought it'd be a good time to make that distinction. it's about we, as Catholics, calling it "interreligious dialogue" and not "interfaith dialogue".. people won't even notice the difference. that's what the Vatican generally does, it seems to me; they use the precise terminology because to not do so is to confuse Catholics even if the non-Catholics never even notice the difference. That's why we have a Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue and not a Pontifical Council for Interfaith dialogue. a search of the Vatican's websites shows some sparse references to the word "interfaith", mostly when that's the title of a group or discussion group they'rer addressing, or when it's a lower level document, but it seems everything high level that refers to this calls it "interreligious"--that is the correct term. it's important that Catholics know what "faith" actually means and the differene between that and the secular definition. the secular word for "faith" is synonymous with "belief" and "religion" and a whole host of other terms, we needn't use this theological term to refer to things which are not the same as it. you need not go around calling all non-Catholics faithless, but talk of non-Christian religions as "beliefs" or "religions"; do not referr to them as "faiths"... no one will even notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that you'll probably be called to explain it often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 if I say "you don't have faith" but not if I merely call their religions religions and their beliefs beliefs... and refer to the dialogue as interreligious, does anyone really notice? how many people are out there demanding that the term "faith" refer to their religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1800649' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:10 PM']Why does EVERYTHING and EVERYONE have to be dismissed b/c it doesn't match the CATHOLIC understanding?? It's about trying to understand others, get it? We don't have to agree with them. We just have to understand where they are coming from. How can you expect to evangelize people when you dismiss evertything they think b/c it isn't Catholic? Certainly people of other religions have faith. Who are you to say they don't? How insulting you can be.[/quote] Why do you have to get so pissed off at every little thing? Just relax. Go get some Wiskey fill it about a fifth of the way up the glass, add some ice and sprite and sip on that. It'll do wonder To the smart Irish guy (aloysious?), I guess my question would be why it matters so much what they call it? I mean would you like it better if they said something like "inter religious dialogue" or something like that? Also to Madam again, for your talk of protestants making false claims about Catholicism I've seen you make some false/silly claims about Protestantism and Protestants and Islam and muslims, so practice what you preach perhapse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1800453' date='Mar 8 2009, 01:21 PM']Ecumenism is a movement by which peoples of the various branches of the Christian faith come together in a spirit of brotherhood and respect so that open and honest dialogue can be fostered. The secondary goal is for Catholics to gain a better understanding of the hearts and minds of our seperated brethren. The primary goal is to bring them into the Church.[/quote] I agree with this. [quote name='Hassan' post='1800959' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:48 PM']Why do you have to get so pissed off at every little thing?[/quote] And why do you have to be so rude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 to me, it is important that WE as Catholics state such things precisely, so yes it should be called "interreligious dialogue" as I said. why is it important? because when Catholics start defining "faith" the secular way, they start to understand the virtue of faith in, well, Pelagian terms.. because if faith is just belief, then faith is an act of man. the point is that when we take theological terms and apply them to things that don't fit the theological definition, it muddles the understanding of the actual thing we deal with in our religion. if we started calling all religious rituals of other religions "sacraments", we'll muddle up what our own sacraments are, they would become nothing more to us than another religious ritual. words like "faith" and "grace" and "sacrament" ought to be preserved in their proper theological usage for the sake of Catholics themselves. I'm not so much concerned that non-Catholics know that they don't have faith as Catholics define it, I'm more concerned that Catholics understand that what we have as faith is not faith as the world defines it and it is not equivalent to what other religions have. belief is, we have belief in our religion and it's equivalent to belief in other religions because we both do believe things even if they are different. so basically, the words should be used precisely by Catholics so that Catholics understand what they are to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1800997' date='Mar 9 2009, 01:23 AM']And why do you have to be so rude?[/quote] I dunno... he was nice to this "smart irish guy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1800454' date='Mar 8 2009, 12:26 PM']I once encountered a Catholic woman who commented on my miraculous medal necklace and she said she used to wear one, too, but she stopped because the Blessed Mother puts off the protestants.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801008' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:32 PM']because when Catholics start defining "faith" the secular way, they start to understand the virtue of faith in, well, Pelagian terms.. because if faith is just belief, then faith is an act of man.[/quote] Now that's interesting Edited March 9, 2009 by Hassan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1800997' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:23 PM']And why do you have to be so rude?[/quote] Not rude so much as abrupt. I thik it's a good question. Why do I flip out and get all high and mighty when individuals make what I see as bigoted or overly generalized comments about other groups of people? Because of an experience I had with a Holocaust survivor. Madam V also has an odd tick and I'm wondering what the origin of it is. Fair enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801009' date='Mar 9 2009, 12:33 AM']I dunno... he was nice to this "smart irish guy" [/quote] As an Irishman I'm sure you can appreciate that when I wrote that I had been comming off of a few drinks and consequently may have said some silly things I now rejret later No but really, I respect your oppinion quite a bit even if I reject a lot of them (in politics and religion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1800997' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:23 PM']I agree with this. And why do you have to be so rude?[/quote] It's called attention-seeking. Ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1801009' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:33 PM']I dunno... he was nice to this "smart irish guy" [/quote] It's called playing one side against the other. He does it all the time. If he can use one person to make an assault on another person, that's what he'll do. He'll "appear" to be sticking up for you for the sole purpose of making an attack on me. So transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1801239' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:21 AM']It's called playing one side against the other. He does it all the time. If he can use one person to make an assault on another person, that's what he'll do. He'll "appear" to be sticking up for you for the sole purpose of making an attack on me. So transparent.[/quote] Listen to Madam V she's obviously a good judge of these things. I mean she also spotted that I was actually a secret Muslim, that I was lying about having Jewish family, and that I was never a former Catholic one clever duck lol, no Madam V. I really am wondering why you see to overreact all the time and I really do respect Aloysius quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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