Brazilian "rape Row" Sparks Excommunications

[MithLuin]

And refusing to provide medical care to a woman who is in danger of dying would be called...what?

I am hardly saying that abortion is a good thing. It's not. It's grievously wrong. But in this case? Please tell me, what is the 'good' solution for a 9 year old girl who is carrying twins as a result of incestuous rape? I mean, really. I do not know enough about her bone or body structure to be sure, but I strongly suspect that in her case - pregnancy was a life-threatening condition.

Obviously, no attempt was made to save the babies in this case. I am *not* saying that what was done was right. All I said was that the excommunication is automatic, so calling attention to it is unnecessary.


When the life of the mother is in danger, a choice has to be made - do you endanger the mother's life by continuing the pregnancy, or do you endanger the baby's life by doing something about it. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the baby dies, and the mother is saved. While this situation may not have been as clear cut, I think that it falls into a similar 'life of the mother' category.

And yes, I know you're supposed to find a loophole where you don't do anything to directly end the life of the child. Inducing labor before viability or something. The unfortunate truth is that an unborn baby, in utero, relies totally on its mother's body, so when there is a problem...there's nothing you can do to save the baby. Or in this case, babies.

[Hassan]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1803317' date='Mar 10 2009, 11:59 PM']And yes, I know you're supposed to find a loophole where you don't do anything to directly end the life of the child. [b]Inducing labor before viability or something[/b]. The unfortunate truth is that an unborn baby, in utero, relies totally on its mother's body, so when there is a problem...there's nothing you can do to save the baby. Or in this case, babies.[/quote]


Of course in this case it seems that she could not survive even this.

to the general thread

People don't grow to hate the Church because of the self sacraficing work done by the religious orders in Hati or because it's sacramental theology precludes homosexual unions. Not most people at least. It is rather situations like this when obstinate legal rigitiy seems to come before even basic morality or compassion (organized religion in general). That this child should have been forced to go through labour in order to do nothing more or less than was done by the doctor seems morally insain. I understand asking this of a woman who is a faithful Catholic but this is a little girl.

I can understand being opposed to elective abortions. I honestly see where you all are coming from. But this is just madness.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Hassan

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1803328' date='Mar 11 2009, 01:06 AM']Of course in this case it seems that she could not survive even this.

to the general thread

People don't grow to hate the Church because of the self sacraficing work done by the religious orders in Hati or because it's sacramental theology precludes homosexual unions. Not most people at least. It is rather situations like this when obstinate legal rigitiy seems to come before even basic morality or compassion (organized religion in general). That this child should have been forced to go through labour in order to do nothing more or less than was done by the doctor seems morally insain. I understand asking this of a woman who is a faithful Catholic but this is a little girl.

I can understand being opposed to elective abortions. I honestly see where you all are coming from. But this is just madness.[/quote]
Do you think rules are there just for the easy cases? Do you think standards apply only when nothing important is at stake? Do we apply compassion only to the little 9 year old and forget there are two other lives here? What if she had lived in a country where 9 or 10 year olds children are forced to get married? Or does that make it all different? Its ok to impregnate a child AFTER you forced her to get married? What about a pregnant 12 year old? Where do you draw the line? When is it ok or not to play God?

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1803358' date='Mar 10 2009, 11:35 PM']Do you think rules are there just for the easy cases?[/quote]

We are not talking about easy cases, we are talking about a little girl who is going to die. There is nothing easy about this case. The question is do we save the little girls life or do we let her die along with the fetuss to prove a point?

[quote]Do you think standards apply only when nothing important is at stake? Do we apply compassion only to the little 9 year old and forget there are two other lives here?[/quote]

Are the aware? Are they going to live in any event?

No to both.

[quote]What if she had lived in a country where 9 or 10 year olds children are forced to get married? Or does that make it all different? Its ok to impregnate a child AFTER you forced her to get married?[/quote]

That is another matter (although yes, the practice should be abolished [u]absolutly[/u]). They matter is not simply that she is young and pregnant. It is that she is young, pregnant, and going to die if she is forced to go on with the pregnancy.

[quote]What about a pregnant 12 year old? Where do you draw the line? When is it ok or not to play God?[/quote]


As far as I can tell God lost any moral authority when he allowed her to be raped and impregnated with the twin fetus' that would kill her. Obviously God is not playing God very well so if the doctor wants to give it a shot by performing a procedure which will save her life then by all means let him at it.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think I mentioned something rather convenient a lot earlier.

Carry the children as long as is physically possible, then induce early labour and deliver by C-section, then do everything possible to keep the babies alive.
Yes, they will probably die, but that is an unintended consequence, much the same as removing fallopian tubes in an ectopic pregnancy.

Seriously. Don't hate.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1804391' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:26 AM']I think I mentioned something rather convenient a lot earlier.

Carry the children as long as is physically possible, then induce early labour and deliver by C-section, then do everything possible to keep the babies alive.
Yes, they will probably die, but that is an unintended consequence, much the same as removing fallopian tubes in an ectopic pregnancy.

Seriously. Don't hate.[/quote]
exactly.