Differences Between Catholics And Protestants

[infinitelord1]

Can anyone explain the differences in some of these issues? Possibly give biblical reference or historical?

1) The Eucharist...metaphor or really his body?

2) Confessing to a Priest...do we have to?

3) Praying to the Saints as well as praying to mary

4) Infant Baptism

5) Salvation

6) Purgatory...why do catholics believe in this?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1797509' date='Mar 4 2009, 07:09 PM']Can anyone explain the differences in some of these issues? Possibly give biblical reference or historical?

1) The Eucharist...metaphor or really his body?

2) Confessing to a Priest...do we have to?

3) Praying to the Saints as well as praying to mary

4) Infant Baptism

5) Salvation

6) Purgatory...why do catholics believe in this?[/quote]

Well, there's a lot of good material in the Defense Directory and many other places online, not to mention some great books that explain these things better than any of us will in our own words... but generally speaking, all these things boil down to the acceptance of Sacred Tradition as a source and rule of our Christian faith.

Look at those Christians who believe in Sacred Tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglo-Catholicism, Old Catholic, Order of Corporate Reunion (okay, found that one on wikipedia ) and you'll notice the great amount of theological agreement we share. We all believe in seven sacraments (and in nearly all cases, they are valid), apostolic succession, Scripture and Tradition, etc. Divisions among these are caused by relatively minor disagreements, though they are substantial enough to prevent sharing full communion.

Then look at those Christians who reject Sacred Tradition, believing in "Sola Scriptura," or Scripture Alone. You'll find Lutheranism, which believes as we do on Baptism and similarly to us on the Eucharist and salvation. There's Reformed Christianity, which mostly rejects anything other than a purely symbolic Baptism and Communion. And there's a mess of non-denominational and independent churches that could believe all kinds of wacky things. There are some Baptist churches that do baptive infants, yet if that person were to join a different church later in life that only believed in adult Baptism, they would most likely need to be baptized again. Now, to a Baptist, these things aren't usually considered a big deal because they're more concerned with the condition of our hearts. That's why anti-Catholic Baptists often warm up to Catholicism soon as they meet a Catholic whom they can tell is deeply in love with God. But, point being, all these disparate beliefs shows you that a lot of different things can be supported by Scripture outside the context of Tradition.

Edited March 5, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1797509' date='Mar 4 2009, 07:09 PM']Can anyone explain the differences in some of these issues? Possibly give biblical reference or historical?

1) The Eucharist...metaphor or really his body?

2) Confessing to a Priest...do we have to?

3) Praying to the Saints as well as praying to mary

4) Infant Baptism

5) Salvation

6) Purgatory...why do catholics believe in this?[/quote]

1) The [i]everlasting agreements[/i] regarding a) the Bread of the Presence and b) the Pascal sacrifice need to be fulfilled, but in a greater way. The Eucharist achieves this and, in doing so, fulfills prophecies from Zechariah 9:15, Malichi 1:11, Ezekiel 3:1, Sirach 24:19-20, and Proverbs 9:1-6. Jesus repeats the doctrine on the Eucharist more than any other doctrine.

2) Normally, yes. But when one wills toward perfect contrition, one is given perfect contrition in anticipation of an intended future confession. This is based most strongly on John 20:23.

3) Christ is the one mediator between God and Man by nature. However, having been incorporated into Christ's Body and sharing in his Name, we become by grace what he is by nature. Since there is only one Body, undivided, we share a communion with those members of the same Body in Heaven, who continue to intercede and mediate grace for us.

4) Baptism is the new circumcision, which implies reception by infants. Jesus wants even infants to come unto him, which they cannot do under their own power. In the old covenant, even babies could enter into a personal covenant relationship with God; is the new covenant then less powerful than the old? Does the new covenant not have more grace?

5) Salvation is both a sacramental and personal process, which is backed up by a number of verses. The whole "works" thing is misdirection. Anytime Paul condemns works he is referring to the works of the old Law, not the works of the new Law (which would be absurd).

6) Most souls leave the body without being free from all attachments to sin; in other words, most people are imperfect when they die. But nothing imperfect can be in Heaven, in the presence of Perfection itself, anymore than darkness can be in the presence of light. "Purgatory" is the name given to the process of the removal of the "dark" spots, so to speak; the banishment of all shadows from beings of and for light.

For further info and scriptural references, see the Defense Directory.

[Didacus]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1797509' date='Mar 4 2009, 07:09 PM'][snip]

6) Purgatory...why do catholics believe in this?[/quote]

The same way as science has proven scores of things;
logical elimination and deduction.

When all facts gathered leave only one possible option, that option must be true.

As Sherlock Holmes put it:
[quote]Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth?[/quote]
[i]Sir Arthur Conan Doyle[/i]

[Saint Therese]

I think some of the more interesting differences between protestants and Catholics are philosophical.
Its not just a matter of difference in dogma or doctrine but in total world views.
One doctrine(dogma?) not mentioned is the second coming/end times/rapture scenario.

[MIKolbe]

I think Saint Therese is onto something. Here is an article I found by Mark Shea, it seems a little relevant....

[quote]Masculine and Feminine, Evangelical and Catholic

In a mathematically perfect world, conversation between Catholics and Evangelicals would be conducted on the level of pure theology and many misunderstandings would instantly be clarified:

Evangelical: [Stirs sugar into teacup] Tell me, Friend Catholic, what your understanding is of the place of Mary in the economy of salvation? It would appear (though I could be wrong) that you worship her in some way. How do you reconcile this with the biblical witness that God alone is to be worshiped? [Offers teacup to Catholic. Begins pouring his own cup and nodding in profound listening attentiveness throughout following speech.]

Catholic: [Takes teacup. Sips thoughtfully.] Actually, Friend Evangelical, Catholics do not worship Mary. They instead accord her the highest honor due a mere creature (hyperdulia) while according God latria, the worship due to God alone. This is not strange, since we all know what it is to honor a creature (such as our mother on Mother's Day) without honoring that creature to the same degree as God. Honor is, after all, a species of love and we know from the lips of Jesus himself that, so far from insulting God, it is an act of love to God to love our neighbor. Therefore, honoring Mary with hyperdulia is, in fact, an act of love which redounds to God's glory.

Evangelical: [Sips tea thoughtfully, nodding.] Ah! I see. Lucidly spoken! I agree completely. Now, with respect to transubstantiation, I have the following inquiry...

Unfortunately, this is not usually the way conversation begins. I know this from experience, since I used to be an Evangelical. Here's what really happens:

You walk into a Catholic Church and over there is a statue of Mary with some sort of gaudy crown on it. Meanwhile, over here there's a bunch of people in the front row, and they're praying the Rosary (ten to one ratio of Mary to Our Father prayers, you notice). You've got pictures, statues, icons and lots of stuff that you look at. Same when you go into a Catholic home and there is art on the walls featuring Our Lady of the Streets or some other Marian image or statue. If the family is devout, they're praying the Rosary again, often without explaining what they are doing. If they are like many Catholics, the faith is a mixture of old catechesis and affectionate folk piety ("Padre Pio used to tell that story about how when Jesus closed the door to heaven, Mama Mary would let sinners in through the back window.") And that's your first impression. That's what you start with as an Evangelical. So an Evangelical, not unreasonably, says, "There just seems to be a lot of emphasis on Mary." But because the emphasis is not contextualized (i.e., nobody is there to tell the Evangelical what exactly is going on and rare is the parish where somebody clearly articulates it) the Evangelical is more or less in the position of an archaeologist trying to reconstruct a forgotten civilization from the statues left behind while not being able to read the language. Not surprisingly, he concludes the statues or the people they represent are being worshiped.

All this is very funny for educated Catholics, who speak the mysterious hieroglyphic language called "Tradition" the Evangelical is struggling to decode. And sometimes, humorous things result from the miscommunication. For instance, I was on an internet list group one time when an angry young Fundamentalist wrote in and said, "Why is it you guys worship statues!?" A very droll deacon wrote back to him and said, "Oh, we don't worship statues anymore, now we worship banners."

However, as tempting as it is to reply like this, it is also vital to note that, for the Evangelical, it's a live question precisely because what you are often dealing with is not a theological treatise but a set of first impressions tangled, not merely with theological but with cultural differences.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Imagine yourself opening up some Catholic magazine or turning on some Catholic program and seeing an ad with language like this (spoken with a distinct Southern accent):

"Support John Paul II Ministries! Marching out in the power in the Spirit to claim victory over the powers of Hell! Anointed! Dynamic! Making an impact on this generation for Jesus Christ!!"

Doesn't sound very Catholic does it? But stop. Is there, in fact, anything in the description of our mission as Catholics that's fundamentally at odds with that kind of language? No. Not a thing. We are, in fact, called to claim victory over hell by the power of the Spirit. We have been anointed in baptism and confirmation. We are called to dynamically bear witness to Christ and to "renew the face of the earth" through the Holy Spirit.

Yet you still associate such language with the 700 Club, don't you?

Now let's try another thought experiment. You flip on your TV to the 700 Club or TBN and you see an ad there as a woman with an English accent intones, "Read The Inner Way of Silence, and allow God to invite you to enter more deeply the path of contemplation. Experience sanctity as a fruit of dialogue with the Holy Spirit. Practice the presence of God and open yourself to the gentle prompting of the Spirit by saying, as Mary did, 'I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy will.' Allow the Spirit to breathe into your quiet reflection on the work of God in Scripture and Creation. Let God breathe forth in you, as in Mary's womb, the Christ who comes to us in prayer and mystery."

Again, is there anything in this that's not biblical? Not a thing. And yet you'd never hear such an ad on the 700 Club or some other Evangelical show. Why not?

Because the language is feminine and Evangelical culture tends to be overwhelmingly masculine. Conversely, Catholic culture tends to be overwhelmingly feminine. And the two cultures often mistake their cultural differences for theological ones. The Catholic approach to God tends to be feminine, body centered, Eucharistic, and contemplative. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for seeking union with God. Evangelical approaches to God tend to be masculine, centered on Scripture, centered on mission, and on the Spirit working in power. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for getting things done. Neither of these ways of approach are wrong. Both of these are legitimate Christian ways of approaching the Gospel. Indeed, both of them are, or should be, part of the Catholic way of approaching the Gospel.

But, largely because we don't recognize that they are cultural differences, these ways of approach often constitute a collision point between Evangelicals and Catholics. Take, for instance, the different approaches to prayer. The Feminine Spirituality of the Catholic tends to see the Evangelical approach to prayer as rather shallow and utilitarian. Prayer to get things done looks like prayer which uses God as a means to an end. Meanwhile, Catholic piety tends to be seen by Evangelicals as a cold inwardness cut off from "real life." Thus, Evangelicals frequently criticize the Catholic monastery for its "retreat from reality behind the walls of the cloister", praying piously while the world is going to hell in a handbasket. The Catholic who is tempted to pass judgement needs to be reminded that prayer for daily bread is encouraged by our Lord. The Evangelical who is tempted to pass judgment needs to be reminded that Jesus went into the desert to pray and seek union with the Father. Both are legitimate forms of prayer.

Such collision points represent an opportunity and a challenge. The Catholic response to this challenge is straightforward, we must be the first to do what Catholic faith does so well: embrace the Catholic Both/And so that Evangelical masculine piety is again embraced and honored in a healthy way. And I am convinced this is happening. That's why so many cradle Catholics are responding to the wave of Evangelical converts who have poured into the Church in the past 15 years. The Catholic faith is ripe for a renewal of, so to speak, masculine piety. But, by the same token (and I speak here as a "completed Evangelical" myself), Evangelicals both inside and outside the Catholic communion must also face facts: the feminine way has been too long denied and denigrated by us. We must find a way to integrate it back into our spiritual lives if we are to fully grasp the gift Christ has won for us. It was on many levels that Jesus spoke when, as his dying act, he gave us a Mother. We have feared the Blessed Virgin, Holy Mother Church, all that is feminine, for far too long.

In sum, Jesus made us, his "beloved disciples" the children of a Heavenly Father, but also of his Mother. We have lived with the division long enough. It is time once again for all Christians to honor our Father and our Mother.[/quote]

[thessalonian]

1) The Eucharist...metaphor or really his body?

All of John 6, Matt 26 Ex 12, all of the book of revelations (parallels the Mass - Read Lambs supper). The Eucharist is totally biblical. Yes it has symbolic and metaphorical aspects. When Jesus says "I am the bread of life" that is a metaphor relates to the Eucharist. But when he says "My flesh is true food...My blood is true drink" and "this is My body...This is my blood" that is not the language of metaphore. When he says in john 6 "he who eats my flesh" the greek as I understand it is very literal, to gnaw or chew and the Jews response backs that up. "how can he give us his flesh to eat". They take it literal.

Protestantism has a host of beliefs about the Lord's Supper. Everything from not practicing it at all to symbolic to spiritual to consubstantiation to almost equal to what Catholics say in Anglican and some Missouri Synod Lutheran congregations. The Eucharist is extremely important as John 6 says. "unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE WITHIN YOU.". That puts it as a salvation issue. The truth of it is therefore critically important.

2) Confessing to a Priest...do we have to?

In Catholicism we don't have to confess every sin. Only mortal sin. The Eucharist and/or perfect contrition can forgive venial sin. It is highly recommended that venial sins be confessed but not strictly neccessary. John 20:21-23 is the most common verse. There are others.

3) Praying to the Saints as well as praying to mary

Those in heaven are not separated from Christ for Rom 8 says "nothing can separate us from the love of God. And it includes death. So those in heaven are members of the body of Christ and the Church needs them. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12. Heb 12 says that those in heaven witness what is going on here. We are told in Rev 5 and 8 that our prayers, represented by smoke going up to heaven is mixed with the incense representing the prayers of those in heaven. Therefore they pray for us. James 5 says "the prayers of a righteous man avail much" and there are none more righteous than those in heaven. Therefore it is good to ask them to pray for us.


4) Infant Baptism
Well we have proof in scripture that babies can recieve the Holy Spirit. Exhibit A in Luke 1, we are told that John would be filled with the Holy Spirit "EVEN FROM HIS MOTHERS WOMB". When Elizabeth meets Mary and is filled with the HS it is clear that John recieves the HS too and he leaps within the womb. So if babies can receive the HS why should we deny him to them? Hummmmmmm? We are told in Acts, i.e chap. 16 that households are baptized. Now it does not say "Households except for babies". So it would seem that the whole household, which at least in one of the three cases would include children (in the Corenlius case it seems that there were multiple families involved) there is no doudt that babies were baptized. Also baptism was foreshadowed by circumcion. Circumsion was the entrance in to Judaism and baptism is "circumcision of the heart" as Paul calls it. Circumsion was administered on the 8th day and depended on the faith of the parents. It would seem very odd that baptism would not be administered to babies in the early Church considering this background info.


5) Salvation
I'll have to come back and get to this one. But in general Jesus died for our sins and so won the grace for our salvation. That grace needs to be applied to our lives and not just one time. Salvation is a journey of faith, in which God gives us the grace to do his will and leads us through the desert of life to the promised land. We can fall from grace.


6) Purgatory...why do catholics believe in this?
1 Cor 3:15 is the best verse fro this in my view.
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
[16]Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

Got that. There is a purfication that takes place after death for those who's works are not sufficient to bring about their complete sanctification. NOTHING impure enters heaven and so we have to be made completely pure BY THE GRACE OF GOD before heaven. Now I don't know about you but I'm still a sinner and have issues. I will not have anger or lust or gluttony in heaven, yet these things afflict me from time to time on this earth. So somthings gotta give between here and heaven. Are you perfect? Will you be in heaven? So if a bus ran over you right now and your not perect how do you get perfect? The grace of Christ is applied directly to your soul. Read the refiners fire in Mal 3. The refiner knows when the silver is purified when he see's his perfect image in the silver. That's purgatory.

[tinytherese]

This is a great apologetics site that's easy to remember. [url="http://www.catholic.com/"]http://www.catholic.com/[/url]

Edited March 23, 2009 by tinytherese