CatherineM Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I know that torture didn't work on my dad. There are chemical means that can work much better than physical torture, so my question is why would we ever resort to the physical? How could you ever really know with physical torture that they are even giving you the truth or just telling you anything to end the torture. Just as rape isn't about sex, but about power and control, I think that torture isn't about gaining any real information, it is about gaining submission. Once a prisoner is removed from an area of operation, unless they are a general or head of a terrorist cell, we probably know more about what is going on in the field than they would after their capture. What could they really tell us at that point? Elaborate hypotheticals are interesting only in a philosophy classroom. The problem is that the people in charge of making these decisions have had little philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1796332' date='Mar 3 2009, 03:01 PM']I can make it more personal. Terrorists have kidnapped a group of innocent people and are holding them hostage in an unknown location. Your immediate family are part of this group. The terrorists are trying to make some distorted political statement - they are brutally torturing every single member of the group. To prove that they are not messing around, they allow one individual from each family to call a loved one on the outside (keeping the conversations short so the cell phone signal cannot be traced). You are on the phone with your [insert parent/sibling/spouse/child here] who is in hysterics. But there is good news! The CIA happens to have a lead on a terrorist who has critical knowledge about the terrorist operation. They put together a team and catch the terrorist in question. You just so happen to be a CIA agent, a pivotal member of this mission (to save the innocents from brutal torture and inevitable death). You now have this terrorist in custody who is a known affiliate of those currently torturing the innocent group (remember, your family is included). The captured terrorist is not talking and is unresponsive to every single deal offered (this is the kind of terrorist who would commit suicide for the sake of his/her cause). This terrorist is your [b]only[/b] lead and your only hope of saving the innocents. The question: Would you approve of the new CIA "enhanced interrogation" techniques? If you firmly answer "no" please be able to offer an alternative.[/quote] I think someone's been watching to much 24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1796554' date='Mar 3 2009, 05:40 PM']I know that torture didn't work on my dad. There are chemical means that can work much better than physical torture, so my question is why would we ever resort to the physical? How could you ever really know with physical torture that they are even giving you the truth or just telling you anything to end the torture. Just as rape isn't about sex, but about power and control, I think that torture isn't about gaining any real information, it is about gaining submission. Once a prisoner is removed from an area of operation, unless they are a general or head of a terrorist cell, we probably know more about what is going on in the field than they would after their capture. What could they really tell us at that point? Elaborate hypotheticals are interesting only in a philosophy classroom. The problem is that the people in charge of making these decisions have had little philosophy.[/quote] I wonder how many young Muslim men went to fight "jihad" in Iraq after images of fellow Muslims being sexually and physically abused by some sadastic guards came out? How many young men shot up an American Humvee after his sister was "dishonored" in an American prison. Outside of outlandish scinarios with no proximity to reality not only may torture not be effective, it can cause far worse damage than it sought to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1796557' date='Mar 3 2009, 04:44 PM']I think someone's been watching to much 24[/quote] Jason already brought that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1796562' date='Mar 3 2009, 04:50 PM']I wonder how many young Muslim men went to fight "jihad" in Iraq after images of fellow Muslims being sexually and physically abused by some sadastic guards came out? How many young men shot up an American Humvee after his sister was "dishonored" in an American prison. Outside of outlandish scinarios with no proximity to reality not only may torture not be effective, it can cause far worse damage than it sought to avoid.[/quote] Justifying jihad now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1796566' date='Mar 3 2009, 05:52 PM']Justifying jihad now?[/quote] what do you mean? And I now know the 24 thing was brought up by Jason, it was just a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote]Doesn't matter what example you give you cannot torture someone. No evil act could be permitted to attain the greater good.[/quote] Well, who is saying that it is an evil act to do these things? An argument can be made that it is a necessary act, not an evil one. After all, killing another human being is an evil act, is it not? Yet, the church allows us to be soldiers in the military, does She not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='dUSt' post='1796578' date='Mar 3 2009, 04:05 PM']Well, who is saying that it is an evil act to do these things? An argument can be made that it is a necessary act, not an evil one. After all, killing another human being is an evil act, is it not? Yet, the church allows us to be soldiers in the military, does She not?[/quote] That's a good point. My dad always said he didn't regret the people he killed during the war, he regretted that it was necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1796550' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:37 PM']Alright I just came up with a crazy scenario. There was a thread a while back about self-defense: a crook barges into your house brandishing a weapon. I was pretty shocked with the rather graphic responses to this scenario (don't quote me but I'm pretty sure someone said they'd whip out their shotgun and blast the crook). A lot of posters brought up their need to protect their family. Now even though the crook was brandishing a weapon, that does NOT mean the crook had every single intention of using it, so are you justified in killing the crook and claiming self-defense? Take a look at this scenario in comparison: you have a terrorist in the interrogation room. You are not completely certain that the terrorist has the information you need (just like you are not completely certain if the crook is really going to cause physical harm - maybe death - to you and your family). The very city [b]you[/b] and [b]your family is in[/b] is being threatened by the group the terrorist is associated with. Therefore if you do not get your information you and your family will die (as well as everyone else in the city, and perhaps around it). Isn't torturing the terrorist (again using the examples provided in the OP) an act of self-defense?[/quote] you seem to really want to dance the line again.. Well..someone who breaks into my house with a gun is a pretty different scenario than me swooping Habib Al-Akmed out of Afganistan because i THINK he may have intel. The similarities are sparce, to be generous. Further, though I do not know, FOR SURE, whether the crook will USE the gun..I doubt he will be making gingerbread cookies with it..Again, the similarities differ greatly. Further, if I had to shoot, it would be out of an immediate and certain threat to me and my loved ones. Again, the only CERTAIN thing I know about Habib Al-Akmed is that he MIGHT have intel. Further, if I had to shoot, DOESN'T mean I would HAVE to kill. I could take out his kneecaps or shot him in the mommy-daddy button...I think the catechist talks about this (well not the shooting in the mommy-daddy button, but about using JUST enough force to subdue, which MAY include death, but MUSTN'T always include death).. Again.. similarities are not there. I guess the bottom line is this.. what does it matter if we win, if we lose our souls? I think there's a Bible quote in there somewheres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1796244' date='Mar 3 2009, 10:13 AM']CCC: 2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.[/quote] HERE'S A QUESTION... Read the above quote and explain how torture is in line with this teaching. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1796603' date='Mar 3 2009, 06:19 PM']HERE'S A QUESTION... Read the above quote and explain how torture is in line with this teaching. thanks.[/quote] Torture by its very nature would not be in line with that teaching. However the state must at times enact tough interrogation which does not cross the line. We just can not start moving the line. That goes both ways we cant start calling torture, interrogation, nor can we start calling interrogation, torture. Edited March 3, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1796566' date='Mar 3 2009, 05:52 PM']Justifying jihad now?[/quote] ok, the first time I read this I thought you said "justifying jihad how?" like how these men were useing these events to justify jihad. What mental contortions you underwent to get out of my post that I was justifying jihad I do not know. I asked how many young Muslim men went to fight "jihad" after seeing what happened to their fellow Muslims or their sister feeling she was violated while in an American prison in Iraq. I closed saying, "Outside of outlandish scinarios with no proximity to reality not only may torture not be effective, it can cause far worse damage than it sought to avoid. " That is to say the terrorism torture is supposed to combat often causes more terrorism. We try to psychologically break those men and women (many of whome are only nominally involved with any sort of terrorism, at a very low level of the organization, or just innocent) through rather brutal or sadastic tactics, news of this gets out, and the fires of hatred, violence, and terrorism simply get fuel added to them. No where did I even approach justifying jihad or any sort of violent actions. You have, on numerous occasions now, attempted to twist my words in such a way that I am somehow justfying or condoning terrorism. I'm not sure why you continue to do this, on every occasion I have denounced and denied any such justification yet you still persist. It's too absurd for me to get annoyed over but I do find it somewhat odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1796603' date='Mar 3 2009, 06:19 PM']HERE'S A QUESTION... Read the above quote and explain how torture is in line with this teaching. thanks.[/quote] I always found it off, whenever Christians tried to justify torture. It just seems so out of line with everything I see in the Gospels or the things I've read from the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosieranna Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Torture is torture. Semantics won't change the essence. Extreme circumstances may apparently render an accordingly extreme action justifiable. Each additional justification requires less and less extremity. The instant I condone an action is the very instant that action can be taken against me. Accountability is lost if the party determining what constitutes torture is the same party which determines against whom those actions can be taken. I'll very roughly paraphrase Ben Franklin: "those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." It is a not incomprehensible leap from using "enhanced" methods against those who pose an apparent threat to using them against any who disagree. I'll admit that it is a somewhat paranoid outlook for this particular time and place, but similar events have occurred in the past. And no, I do NOT, under any circumstances, condone or support jihad or any other kind of extremism. Nor am I arguing for appeasement. I would hope, were I this sort of circumstance, that I could keep some semblance of decency in the face of enemy totally lacking in it. edited for specificity Edited March 4, 2009 by Nadezhda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1796603' date='Mar 3 2009, 05:19 PM']HERE'S A QUESTION... Read the above quote and explain how torture is in line with this teaching. thanks.[/quote] What if we (as in America) were not using "tough interrogation" or "torture" but another country [i]was[/i] using these methods against us (therefore treating prisoners of war inhumanely), is there anything in the Catechism that addresses how we respond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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