Carmelite Live-ins

[Gemma]

For all the talk of 1990 Constitution Carmels, I'd like to remind everyone that the 1991 Carmels have 3 month live-in opportunities.

The live-in experience will help you figure out if you have a true CALL TO Carmel, or just a very intense ATTRACTION to Carmel and its spirituality.

Cloister Outreach is learning that many converts experience a tremendous, intense attraction to Carmel, when in fact they are being led by the Holy Ghost to deepen their prayer life. The RCIA seems to be failing where "mystagogy" (spiritual journey) is concerned for converts.

We recommend "An Easy Way to Become a Saint," by Fr. O'Sullivan, OP. The book is based on the Little Way of St. Therese.

HTH

Blessings,
Gemma

[AccountDeleted]

I think that most Carmels have live-in opportunities, don't they? The Carmels I have contacted, including 1990s, all recommend a time of live-in before making an application for postulancy.

Gemma is right in that the live-in time gives a candidate a better picture about the life, and about that community in particular. Although the basic charism is the same, different communities are very different in how that charism is expressed. The fact that all Carmels are autonomous monasteries means that even within the two versions of the constitutions, there are subtle (but real) differences in each community.

I have lived inside the enclosure of two different (1991) Carmels, and in May I am going to do a live-in in a 1990s Carmel. I found distinct differences between the two 1991s communities, and I have already been told about some of the differences in the 1990 Carmel that I will be visiting, and I am looking forward to experiencing this for myself.

As for the RCIAs mystogagy of converts - I became a Catholic in the days before there ever was an RCIA - so mystagogy was unheard of then!!! I had to go through a second conversion two years during a parish renewal - that's when my faith actually became real for me. That's why I really like the Missions - I think they really help "wake up" Catholics to their faith.

Edited March 1, 2009 by nunsense

[Saint Therese]

I agree. AFter I was baptised and recieved into the Church I was on my own. I think RCIA should include some after-Easter guidance for new converts.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1794074' date='Feb 28 2009, 11:41 PM']I agree. AFter I was baptised and recieved into the Church I was on my own. I think RCIA should include some after-Easter guidance for new converts.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing just a little bit ago. I've been volunteering with the RCIA program at the parish in my college town and it seems as if we are just touching the surface of catholicism and living it out. If Fr. let's me I'll hand out a list at least to some helpful resources for learning more about the faith (including phatmass.)

[Graciela]

"I have lived inside the enclosure of two different (1991) Carmels, and in May I am going to do a live-in in a 1990s Carmel."

Are you willing to share which 1990-Constitution Carmel? What has been your discernment process about this coming live-in- is it about the Constitutions per se or something else or q combination? I ask not to pry, but I've been awed and inspired by your courage in following this call and would love to "stay with you" on the journey. You are in my prayers.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1794682' date='Mar 1 2009, 07:57 PM']"I have lived inside the enclosure of two different (1991) Carmels, and in May I am going to do a live-in in a 1990s Carmel."

Are you willing to share which 1990-Constitution Carmel? What has been your discernment process about this coming live-in- is it about the Constitutions per se or something else or q combination? I ask not to pry, but I've been awed and inspired by your courage in following this call and would love to "stay with you" on the journey. You are in my prayers.[/quote]

I haven't wanted to talk too much about myself because it seem so self-centered, but if any of this information can be useful to someone else, I have no objections to sharing my views. Remember though that they are only my opinions, and I would be the first to admit that I could be totally wrong about everything I think!! So if anyone objects to anything I have said, then I will not only retract it, but also deny under oath that I ever said it (joke).

And I do want to say that I love both of the Carmelite communities where I lived and still stay in touch with them both. And WV even posted the photos I took while I was there with them (before my clothing) - here is the [url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_AlbumManager_op=list"][u]link to the photo album[/u]. [/url]I am the one NOT in habit of course - lol!

God willing, and finances agreeing, I will be going to Sheffield Carmel in the UK in May. I would like to visit some US 1990s but when I was living in NJ, I stopped by the Morristown Carmel several times and was never able to meet with anyone, so I left two letters but never received even a "God bless you" in reply! My SD in NJ said it was just as well I didn't hear back from that community, but didn't elaborate for me, so I let it drop. I did hear back from the Littleton CO Carmel two years ago, but never got around to a visit. I don't know if they are still a possibility or if my extra two years of age would now make a difference to them or not. The other 1990s Carmels in the US seem to be looking for younger vocations, although I have to admit I haven't been in recent contact with any of them so don't know if they have changed their minds about this. I have noticed that as time passes and if vocations don't appear, some Carmels become more open-minded about late vocations.

I actually prefer the English breviary (Divine Office) to the US LOH, so I don't mind going back to England. The weather isn't as nice as California (where I am now), but since I am not living just for the sunshine, it doesn't really matter

Why am I looking into a 1990s community? Well, I think that my experience of the last 1991 Carmel was a bit of an eye opener for me, and it made me think that I might prefer to try a more traditional community. That is not to say that the 1991s can't be traditional or that the 1990s are better in any way, but as I learn more and experience more, I am finding that certain things matter to me that might not matter to someone else. It probably seems very picky and lacking in self-surrender, but I am just trying to see everything as God directing my footsteps for His own good purpose (although He doesn't share the whys and wherefores with me, and sometimes I do wonder what on earth He is doing! )

For example, at the Edmonton Carmel (and let me say that I really love the Reverend Mother there) - they do not not keep the fast from the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross to Easter, as St Teresa wanted them to, and they have mitigated both the Rule of St Albert and even their own 1991 Constitutions by eating meat. Their logic is that since the meat is donated to them, it is acceptable (and even obligatory) to eat it, and that fasting is not something the Church has been stressing so they don't see any point in it any more. Since the Holy Father has come out recently in favor of fasting, perhaps they might rethink this - I hope so. I understand their logic about the meat, but I don't agree with it. If they were given donations of whiskey, would they be under obligation to drink it? Maybe my logic is faulty too, but since both the Rule and the Constitutions prohibit eating meat except for health reasons or when travelling (to avoid causing hardship to one's hosts), it just seems to me that this is a penance that should be maintained. Naturally I didn't leave over such a small reason, but there were several other mitigations that concerned me as well, especially since St John of the Cross warned against superiors who allowed mitigations to the Rule. Mitigations (in my opinion), that don't have a really strong and valid reason for them, open the door to other subtle changes that might undermine the spirit and charism of the Order. That is what happened to St Teresa's original Carmelite community at the Incarnation - they were living under the mitigated Rule and over time, many abuses crept in. That is why she wanted to reform Carmel - to return to the original charism of the Order.

Another example of a mitigation carried too far (in my opinion) -- the Carmel in Wolverhampton has two cars. Now, I can understand a 1991s having one car to go to the doctor or dentist or even meetings (which they do go to) but two?? It just seems to me that for cloistered nuns to own two cars somehow violates the spirit of poverty. This seems to me to be an example where common sense suggested one car, but then, for some reason, two seemed like an even better idea. So then, next, why not get rid of the cloister grille (the one in Edmonton is decorative rather than functional, and is opened completely for Mass - another small thing that bothered me) - and after that - why not start having parlor visits like the Incarnation Convent did -- total social events?? See what I mean?

It is all about common sense of course, and I guess what I am trying to say is that once mitigations are allowed, it seems to invite all manner of rule bending to the point where sometimes the Rule actually gets broken (like with eating meat and not fasting). So, yes, these things bothered me, although in both communities, the mitigations were not the main reasons for my not staying. That doesn't mean that a community shouldn't accept that we are living in the 21st century and to take advantage of things like electric lights, computer etc. I don't think we need to necessarily live in medieval conditions, but it is important (to me) to honor the spirit behind the reform - and that definitely includes a life of prayer and penance and self-denial. Personally I would prefer to err on the side of conservatism, because it is better to stretch the rubber band just a little than to pull it so tight that it breaks (too many metaphors??).

Anyway, Sheffield is very strict about the Rule and follow the 1581 Constitutions (promulgated in 1990) and recently they wrote to tell me that at the request of their MP, they had fasted for two days for our US President. This made me very happy to think that prayer and penance for the world are very much the focus of their community. That being said, I haven't visited a 1990s community before, so maybe there will be things at Sheffield that I can't handle, and maybe all of this is just my way of finding fault (I do tend to do this). St Therese didn't go visiting one Carmel after another - she entered her own very fallible and human community and let God use it to turn her into a saint! But then I can't begin to compare myself to that sweet and innocent creature either. I am what I am, and all I know is that I have a Carmelite heart, and am praying for God to find a Carmel where I don't feel like such a square peg in a round hole. And on this journey I am learning patience and perseverance. In fact, I only realized recently that I do indeed have perseverance - maybe not the kind where one enters and stays forever - but the kind where one just keeps getting up every time they fall (like Our Lord on the road to Calvary!). And St Therese did say that God is pleased with our efforts, not our results. So, I just keep trying.

If I failed to answer your questions in my incredibly long winded reply, please feel free to PM or email me. I do get carried away sometimes.

Edited March 2, 2009 by nunsense

[PrayerSupporter]

Hello, Nunsense,

How wonderful that you are continuing your journey to God. I will pray for you and your visit to Sheffield in May -- may God guide you to where He wants you.

One question: you said that you prefer the English breviary (Divine Office) to the US LOH -- could you describe the differences? What is the English breviary called (for example, the abridged US one is called Christian Prayer)?

And thanks for the link to so many pictures of some of the Carmels in the UK. I was especially interested in seeing the ones of Wood Hall since I have read the book Countryside and Cloister by a sister who is at that community -- don't know if she is still there, since the book was published in 1997 and she could be in her late 80s or older by now.

Again, I will offer my continued prayers for your discernment and perseverance. As long as we do our best and cling to God, surely He will, as the saying goes, write straight with the sometimes crooked lines we give Him.

PrayerSupporter

[kavalamyself]

I have read all of your posts and I have learned a lot from you. God bless you!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='PrayerSupporter' post='1796124' date='Mar 3 2009, 06:13 AM']Hello, Nunsense,

One question: you said that you prefer the English breviary (Divine Office) to the US LOH -- could you describe the differences? What is the English breviary called (for example, the abridged US one is called Christian Prayer)?

PrayerSupporter[/quote]

Thank you for your prayers - I need all the help I can get!

The English breviary is called The Divine Office and comes in three volumes instead of four, like the US one. The main differences are the translations, which seem to me to be a bit more poetic than the US ones, the way it is laid out, and the fact that there are chant marks, which aid in chanting the Office. When US communities want to chant the LOH, they usually use something like the Grail Psalter or the Mundelein Psalter because these are designed for chanting and singing, whereas the LOH is designed for recitation. The English breviary is approved for use in Commonwealth countries and some African countries but Edmonton still uses it because they were originally a community in Macau that moved to Canada, and they used it there. I know that St Agatha uses the US LOH, so I assume that the other Candian Carmels do too, but I am not sure.

The ironic thing for me however, is that I love chanting and the Sheffield Carmel mostly recites the Office and only chants on Sundays and Solemnities, although they do sing the hymns. WV, on the other hand, chanted every day, as did Edmonton. Sheffield has also advised me that they only use plain chant, in line with St Teresa's wishes. After the Second Vatican Council, when the Divine Office changed from Latin to the vernacular, many of the Carmels started using a more melodic chant with changing antiphons and psalm tones (although not anywhere on a par with the Gregorian chant used by Benedictines and others). I love chanting, but I accept that the absence of sense satisfaction is one of the things I can offer to Jesus at Sheffield.

I guess I love the English breviary because when I entered Carmel, I learned how to recite the Office using it (I used to use the Shorter Christian Prayer before that) -- and I really feel familiar with it. When I first started learning it, I would cry every day because it was so complicated for me and I felt so stupid (Ferial days and Solemnities weren't so bad because one was almost all Psalter and the other was all Proper, but the feast days took from the Psalter, the Proper and the Common!). And when we would change volumes, it was a major work for me to mark the Office all over again -- especially for Advent - but once I learned how to do it, I fell in love with it! I really don't like using the Christian Prayer any more, or even the US LOH -- they don't feel like "home" to me. Aren't I silly??

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='kavalamyself' post='1796297' date='Mar 3 2009, 11:31 AM']I have read all of your posts and I have learned a lot from you. God bless you![/quote]


We are all learning from each other all the time. That's one of the wonderful things about the phatmass phamily!

[Luigi]

"In fact, I only realized recently that I do indeed have perseverance - maybe not the kind where one enters and stays forever - but the kind where one just keeps getting up every time they fall (like Our Lord on the road to Calvary!). "

A Benedictine friend told me that "a saint is a sinner who keeps trying." I doubt that he made it up himself, and I don't know the original source, but that's the kind of perseverance you describe - not that I'm calling you a sinner! Just that it's the perseverance (the efforts, not the results) that makes us into saints.

[remaoung]

"I am what I am, and all I know is that I have a Carmelite heart, and am praying for God to find a Carmel where I don't feel like such a square peg in a round hole"


Sound to me, lack of humility. We are like clay at the hand of the potter, to be form and change. All the community have their bad and good. We will never persevere if we continue to perfered our own thing. We may be kick out from the monastery or we may leave by our own. Not mean to offend just speak the truth. God bless.

Edited March 5, 2009 by remaoung

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='remaoung' post='1797937' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:21 PM']"I am what I am, and all I know is that I have a Carmelite heart, and am praying for God to find a Carmel where I don't feel like such a square peg in a round hole"


Sound to me, lack of humility. We are like clay at the hand of the potter, to be form and change. All the community have their bad and good. We will never persevere if we continue to perfered our own thing. We may be kick out from the monastery or we may leave by our own. Not mean to offend just speak the truth. God bless.[/quote]

Absolutely - and no offence taken. I have very little humility and I pray God for this virtue every day - but since it is a gift from the Holy Spirit, I am dependant on his mercy. Please pray for me

[PrayerSupporter]

Dear Nunsense,

Thanks very much for the information about the difference between the English and US breviary. I've never been fortunate enough to visit a Carmel or hear their chanting. Does anyone know if there is any CD or computer sound file available that has the Carmelite chanting? Would really enjoy hearing it!

PrayerSupporter

[HolyHearts]

The Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament
in Hanceville, AL also use the UK edition of the Breviary. The UK & some other
countries never accepted the ICEL translation (International Commission foe English
in the Liturgy) and petioned the Holy See to draw up there own translation from the
Approved Latin Text. Hence, the UK version is in fact more in accord w/the original.
For instance: there are NO Psalm Prayers in the Latin; they are a ICEL creation. Also
the Petions Prayers for Morning & Evening Prayer in the ICEL edition are someone
different from the Original. It seems that the UK edidtion is more in conformity with the
Holy See`s Approved Latin Edition.