Convert Facing Death Sentence

[CatherineM]

I have always believed that if Islam is to be converted, it will take Mary's intervention. They have a respect for her. She is mentioned in the Qur'an more than she is in the New Testament. I don't think her choice of Fatima was a coincidence either. With the persecution Islamic converts must face, their faith has got to be almost visible with its intensity.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1794261' date='Mar 1 2009, 11:10 AM']Really, Win? Are you one of my own? Because you have never once--not once--given me than impression.[/quote]
My apologies, I was given to understand you were Catholic.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1794260' date='Mar 1 2009, 12:09 PM']You might find this shocking to believe, but I was not referring to YOU, Hassan. My comments do not revolve around you. Again: failure. to. comprehend.[/quote]


Honestly I don't know what you were trying to say. You butted into a conversation I was having with Winchester to say ""[i]Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.[/i]"

That's something of a confused mess that I can't make sense of.

You feel it's funny how Winchester justifies himself inculting others who debate me but he feels it's ok for him to do"it"?

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1794334' date='Mar 1 2009, 04:13 PM']I have always believed that if Islam is to be converted, it will take Mary's intervention. They have a respect for her. She is mentioned in the Qur'an more than she is in the New Testament. I don't think her choice of Fatima was a coincidence either. With the persecution Islamic converts must face, their faith has got to be almost visible with its intensity.[/quote]


I think it looks like it's going the other way. I mean you have an increasingly religious Islamic world vs. apathetic Christian world. Groosly oversimplified. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing to be honest. I guess it depends on how that Islam identifies itself. I mean Classical Islam is done right? Not just the Caliph but a lot of the old jurists rulings no longer apply in the modern world and there are a lot of great Muslim reformers. On the other hand there is still a lot force with a rather barbaric Talibanism. Who knows.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1794837' date='Mar 1 2009, 11:45 PM']Honestly I don't know what you were trying to say. You butted into a conversation I was having with Winchester to say ""[i]Maybe standing so long is making you cranky." Funny how you justify yourself insulting others who debate with Hassan, but it's okay for you to do it.[/i]"

That's something of a confused mess that I can't make sense of.

You feel it's funny how Winchester justifies himself inculting others who debate me but he feels it's ok for him to do"it"?[/quote]
I was joking with her about the tack in her recent posts, which indicated a higher than normal irritation with you. It didn't go over well.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1792991' date='Feb 27 2009, 11:16 PM']Countries routinely slaughtered people they disagreed with several hundred years ago, but [i]most[/i] nations are a bit more civilized now. Egypt doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks, because Islam is the law of the land, and personal freedoms we take for granted simply do not and will not exist under their law.[/quote]


[i]Civilization[/i] if that is what we now call modernism , is overrated. We should be upset because this is a Chirstian being martyred for his Faith, we should be proud of him, we should pray for him.

To Hassan, I make no apologies for the way Catholicsism dealt with other religions. We are right, they are wrong. I find it funney that people who obvously have Faith are so loathe to say that now.

Yes I'm okay with a Crusade.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901500' date='Jun 25 2009, 05:44 PM'][i]Civilization[/i] if that is what we now call modernism , is overrated. We should be upset because
To Hassan, I make no apologies for the way Catholicsism dealt with other religions. We are right, they are wrong. I find it funney that people who obvously have Faith are so loathe to say that now.[/quote]


I', going to take Chesterton's advise to heart and not argue with you about this, I do find it sad that you are really that closed minded.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1901571' date='Jun 25 2009, 08:46 PM']I', going to take Chesterton's advise to heart and not argue with you about this, I do find it sad that you are really that closed minded.[/quote]


I'm really not close minded at all. I am simply sick of people acting as if we should apologize for being Catholic. I believe the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, headed by the Vicar of Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who believes that, should not feel the least bit sorry for anything the [i]Church[/i] has done. ( Individual members of the Church are just as lible to be peices of garbage as anyone else.) How can you be sorry for the actions taken by the Church as directed by God? That doesn't make me close minded, it makes me convicted.

I believe Islam is a developed form of Arianism, unlike many I have no problem believing that Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, I just believe it was a Fallen Angel. I believe Mohammed was probably a dupe of Satan, not necessarly a willing participant, but working for him none- the-less. I do not doubt the sincerity of muslims and their desire to serve God. I do believe they are Wrong.


You will find I am far more tolerant of extremist than almost anyone you'll meet. The Taliban is not out of line, the Taliban is simply full of actual moslems fighting to preserve their faith and way of life. That earns them my respect, even while it makes them my enemy. They at least are an enemy I can sit down to a cup of coffee with and trust to be honest about there views.


Modernism is an infection, it infects Islam now just as it infects Christianity, it waters down Faith by apathy and relativism. I do not expect an apology fom Osama ben Laden for doing what he believes is right.


Please do not expect an apology from the Church or Her members for doing what was/is right.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901630' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:42 PM']I'm really not close minded at all. I am simply sick of people acting as if we should apologize for being Catholic. I believe the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, headed by the Vicar of Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who believes that, should not feel the least bit sorry for anything the [i]Church[/i] has done. ( Individual members of the Church are just as lible to be peices of garbage as anyone else.) How can you be sorry for the actions taken by the Church as directed by God? That doesn't make me close minded, it makes me convicted.[/quote]

Then I find it unfortunate that your conviction is that unshakable.

[quote]I believe Islam is a developed form of Arianism, unlike many I have no problem believing that Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, I just believe it was a Fallen Angel. I believe Mohammed was probably a dupe of Satan, not necessarly a willing participant, but working for him none- the-less. I do not doubt the sincerity of muslims and their desire to serve God. I do believe they are Wrong.[/quote]


ok


[quote]You will find I am far more tolerant of extremist than almost anyone you'll meet. The Taliban is not out of line, the Taliban is simply full of actual moslems fighting to preserve their faith and way of life. That earns them my respect, even while it makes them my enemy. They at least are an enemy I can sit down to a cup of coffee with and trust to be honest about there views.[/quote]


No, they are (to the extent that they can be accurately described as a coherent group, which is the biggest flaw in your claim) a proxy of the Pakistani army largely made up of disgruntled former tenants of south Asian refugee camps. Or at least they used to be. Now they are also xenophobes fighting to keep foreigners out of their tribal areas, drug runners, nutty American converts, proxy forces of Afghan warlords etc. There is no single "Taliban".


[quote]Modernism is an infection, it infects Islam now just as it infects Christianity, it waters down Faith by apathy and relativism. I do not expect an apology fom Osama ben Laden for doing what he believes is right.[/quote]


I'd like an apology from him for being a murderous ****


[quote]Please do not expect an apology from the Church or Her members for doing what was/is right.[/quote]

I would never ask any to apologize for doing the right thing. I guess our disput settles on what is right.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1901639' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:53 PM']Then I find it unfortunate that your conviction is that unshakable.

[color="#2E8B57"] That is fair. I can totally understand why you would feel it so.[/color]


ok





No, they are (to the extent that they can be accurately described as a coherent group, which is the biggest flaw in your claim) a proxy of the Pakistani army largely made up of disgruntled former tenants of south Asian refugee camps. Or at least they used to be. Now they are also xenophobes fighting to keep foreigners out of their tribal areas, drug runners, nutty American converts, proxy forces of Afghan warlords etc. There is no single "Taliban".
[color="#2E8B57"]I realize the Taliban are not overly coherent, but You refered to them as a unified group up above and I saw no reason to go into it that deeply. But since we're there now, THe Talaban have many motivations but do you really deny that they are sincely trying to live under Islamic law, and live in what they believe to be a rightous society? Do you really believe that even the xenophobles are not sincere?[/color]




I'd like an apology from him for being a murderous ****


[color="#2E8B57"] Whose intolerant now?[/color]

I would never ask any to apologize for doing the right thing. I guess our disput settles on what is right.

[color="#2E8B57"]I would agree. I think though it also settles ont he nature of Faith, if you really believe your Faith is right, why would you bend, if you don't really believe it is right, why would you waste your time?[/color][/quote]

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

After reading, listening to and studying deeply for the last ten years of my life the Islamic faith I can say honestly that it is not peaceful. But I can also say that Islam is not within the Western mindset and can be gravely misinterpreted to be more violent than it is testified to be.

On the same note Christendom as a whole(including Protestants and Non-denominations) is not peaceful. More bloodshed has been spilt in the name of God on both sides of battlefields, inside and outside of the Church and mostly due to linguistics, interpretation and sometimes semantics. We are ridiculous, just like Islamic bloodshed within the confines of its faith.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1901659' date='Jun 25 2009, 10:08 PM']After reading, listening to and studying deeply for the last ten years of my life the Islamic faith I can say honestly that it is not peaceful. But I can also say that Islam is not within the Western mindset and can be gravely misinterpreted to be more violent than it is testified to be.[/quote]


I actually think Bernard Lewis said it best shortly after 9/11 when he said that there is a lot of non sense regarding Islam. That we have two competing over simplifications. One with Islam as the bloody, hateful religion or unqualified slaughter and conquest, and the other of Islam as a pacifistic religion in the vein of Quakerism but without all their undue aggression. Both being non-sense.


I wouldn't agree that "Islam" is violent simply because "Islam" is whatever Muslims choose to make it. Depending on how they interpret their texts, what they consider to be the legitimate applications of exegetical interpretations etc. Muhammad Asad and Ibn Wahhab were both devoted Muslim and brilliant Islamic Scholars. They both had very different ideas about what Islam is. We can go into historical studies regarding how "x" body of Islamic scholars interpreted "y" aspect of their religion at time "z" or other studies along those lines, but beyond that I'm hesitant to ascribe essential isms to any religion.

[Hassan]

[quote]I realize the Taliban are not overly coherent, but You refered to them as a unified group up above and I saw no reason to go into it that deeply.[/quote]


You're right, and I should not have. Thank you for correcting me

[quote]But since we're there now, THe Talaban have many motivations but do you really deny that they are sincely trying to live under Islamic law, and live in what they believe to be a rightous society? Do you really believe that even the xenophobles are not sincere?[/quote]

I'm sure many are sincere.




[quote]Whose intolerant now?[/quote]

I've never advocated unqualified tolerance of all actions. I suppose I respect his willingness to fight for what he believes in, but I see no need to respect the content of that belief (I don't think you were suggesting I should though) or say that we should somehow tolerate any means by which he wishes to go about implementing that belief.


[quote]I would agree. I think though it also settles ont he nature of Faith, if you really believe your Faith is right, why would you bend, if you don't really believe it is right, why would you waste your time?[/quote]

I guess I don't think you have any right to infringe on the lives of others based on you're beliefs. I just think it's irresponsible of you. I guess one reason I can't bring myself to be religious is that I can't bear the thought of interrupting the rights and happiness of others based on a conviction that I cannot justify. If you had some clear proof that you're faith were right and that the proliferation of heresy was endangering the souls of others I would feel differently. But I have seen no evidence and therefore consider it really abhorant. Not you, please don't mistake me. It's nothing personal.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1901680' date='Jun 25 2009, 08:31 PM']I've never advocated unqualified tolerance of all actions. I suppose I respect his willingness to fight for what he believes in, but I see no need to respect the content of that belief (I don't think you were suggesting I should though) or say that we should somehow tolerate any means by which he wishes to go about implementing that belief.[/quote]

Indeed, to "tolerate" (in the political philosophical sense) means to disapprove but in some way to restrain that disapproval. To remove either the disapproval or the restraint is to cease to tolerate.

Modern democratic societies advocating universal acceptance in the name of not being intolerant are not, in fact, becoming more tolerant, because they trying (somewhat futilely) to remove the need for tolerance.

[quote]I guess I don't think you have any right to infringe on the lives of others based on you're beliefs.[/quote]

Unavoidable. Everyone has beliefs. Some of those beliefs are mutually exclusive. Someone gets infringed upon.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901718' date='Jun 25 2009, 10:52 PM']Indeed, to "tolerate" (in the political philosophical sense) means to disapprove but in some way to restrain that disapproval. To remove either the disapproval or the restraint is to cease to tolerate.

Modern democratic societies advocating universal acceptance in the name of not being intolerant are not, in fact, becoming more tolerant, because they trying (somewhat futilely) to remove the need for tolerance.[/quote]

I think you bring up an important distinction.


[quote]Unavoidable. Everyone has beliefs. Some of those beliefs are mutually exclusive. Someone gets infringed upon.[/quote]


This is quite true. I don't claim my inner torments to be fully rational or free of hypocrisies, it was simply my disposition. I don't think there is enough evidence supporting the truth of any of the religions to justify my depriving another of some liberty or freedom in their pursuit of a happy, meaningful life. It simply would be an unbearable pang of conscience for me.