Eucherist Debate On The Bb

[Laudate_Dominum]

What do you think of this polarbear? It's from Augustine's commentary on John.

5. What is it, then, that He adds? "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing." Let us say to Him (for He permits us, not contradicting Him, but desiring to know), O Lord, good Master, in what way does the flesh profit nothing, whilst Thou hast said, "Except a man eat my flesh, and drink my blood, he shall not have life in him?" Or does life profit nothing? And why are we what we are, but that we may have eternal life, which Thou dost promise by Thy flesh? Then what means "the flesh profiteth nothing"? It profiteth nothing, but only in the manner in which they understood it. They indeed understood the flesh, just as when cut to pieces in a carcass, or sold in the shambles; not as when it is quickened by the Spirit. Wherefore it is said that "the flesh profiteth nothing," in the same manner as it is said that "knowledge puffeth up." Then, ought we at once to hate knowledge? Far from it! And what means "Knowledge puffeth up"? Knowledge alone, without charity. Therefore he added, "but charity edifieth." Therefore add thou to knowledge charity, and knowledge will be profitable, not by itself, but through charity. So also here, "the flesh profiteth nothing," only when alone. Let the Spirit be added to the flesh, as charity is added to knowledge, and it profiteth very much. For if the flesh profiled nothing, the Word would not be made flesh to dwell among us. If through the flesh Christ has greatly profiled us, does the flesh profit nothing? But it is by the flesh that the Spirit has done somewhat for our salvation. Flesh was a vessel; consider what it held, not what it was. The apostles were sent forth; did their flesh profit us nothing? If the apostles' flesh profited us, could it be that the Lord's flesh should have profiled us nothing? For how should the sound of the Word come to us except by the voice of the flesh? Whence should writing come to us? All these are operations of the flesh, but only when the spirit moves it, as if it were its organ. Therefore "it is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing," as they understood the flesh, but not so do I give my flesh to be eaten.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='mulls' date='Mar 20 2004, 05:38 PM'] "Well," for one thing, "Bob Ryan" seems to "use quotes" just a bit "excessively." [/quote]
haha!

[p0lar_bear]

Laudate_Dominum,

That works too...

I actually kind of thought about that (that the flesh without the spirit is worthless), but opted for the other interpretation....

I didn't actually do any study to come up with that, I just offered my initial thoughts. I'm quite open to the possibility that I am wrong.

[jmjtina]

it's Eucharist........

typo: Eucherist.

:pebcam:




:ph34r:

[Brother Adam]

Thank you again,

You've given me plenty more to read and put me to shame with your friendship.

God Bless.

I'll try to come back with some input soon.

[Brother Adam]

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"

"Religious."

"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"

"Christian."

"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

To which I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.

[littleflower+JMJ]

:crackup:

[annie]

very funny!

[Im4Him]

:rotfl: Way to lighten the mood!

[Justified Saint]

Don't mean to "darken" the mood, but isn't it obvious how Mr. Ryan dodged the very important piece of evidence, which has already been brought up enough times here, that is that Jesus never explained what his symbols meant. Mr. Ryan claims he did at the end of John 6 but it simply isn't there, he has to read that interpretation into the text when there is clearly no evidence for that interpretation. The Holy Spirit does give live, who is arguing that? How does that make the whole passage symbolic? Is the Holy Spirit just a symbol?

Those grumbling around Jesus weren't confused at his use of "symbols" and taking him too literal when they shouldn't have been, they were in [b]unbelief[/b] over what Jesus was no commanding them to do. When the Jews asked him how he could give them flesh to eat Jesus responded with more vivid language and imagery using the Greek word for "chew" and "gnaw" when referring to the eating of his flesh. Jesus even suspected that his own 12 might abandon him over this teaching. Were the 12 just now figuring out that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God? No, this is new revelation that was accepted [b]because[/b] the 12 believed just that, that Jesus was the Son therefore they had to listen to his commandments and obey him.

Edited March 21, 2004 by Justified Saint

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Mar 21 2004, 05:47 PM']Don't mean to "darken" the mood, but isn't it obvious how Mr. Ryan dodged the very important piece of evidence, which has already been brought up enough times here, that is that Jesus never explained what his symbols meant.  Mr. Ryan claims he did at the end of John 6 but it simply isn't there, he has to read that interpretation into the text when there is clearly no evidence for that interpretation.  The Holy Spirit does give live, who is arguing that?  How does that make the whole passage symbolic?  Is the Holy Spirit symbolic? 

Those grumbling around Jesus weren't confused at his use of "symbols" and taking him too literal when they shouldn't have been, they were in [b]unbelief[/b] over what Jesus was no commanding them to do.  When the Jews asked him how he could give them flesh to eat Jesus responded with more vivid language and imagery using the Greek word for "chew" and "gnaw" when referring to the eating of his flesh.  Jesus even suspected that his own 12 might abandon him over this teaching.  Were the 12 just now figuring out that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God?  No, this is new revelation that was accepted [b]because[/b] the 12 believed just that, that Jesus was the Son therefore they had to listen to his commandments and obey him.[/quote]
I think I love you :wub:

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Mar 20 2004, 05:19 PM'] Bro. Adam,


Aside from the information Carson provided (props on that by the way), I want to address the more specific question of John 6:63 "the flesh is of no avail."


As I'm sure you know the word "flesh" is often used in the Scriptures as the opposite of "spirit." In this use, the word refers to the material or physical rather than literal flesh itself. Given the beginning of the verse "it is the spirit that gives life," I think that the word is used here in that sense.

When "flesh" is used elsewhere in the chapter, the meaning is clearly the literal flesh.

If He is using the word in only one sense (literal flesh), His statements become incoherent. You must eat the flesh to have life, but it is worthless....


This is totally my own thought, so I could be way off, but....

(note: my use of "literal" here is not contrasted to symbolic. It's more like saying "the world" and meaning "the actual planet Earth" rather than "the secular world") [/quote]
Yeah. I would also say that Christ definitely makes a distinction between "THE flesh" and "MY flesh". We all know that "THE flesh"(ours) IS to no avail. But how can any Christian honestly believe that Christ would say that His flesh was of no avail? This would mean that the crucifixion was all for naught, and our whole Christian faith is a wash!

Edited March 22, 2004 by goldenchild17

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 20 2004, 06:21 PM'] I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"

"Religious."

"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"

"Christian."

"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

To which I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.









[/quote]




Bro. You are one awesome man of God. I think that all that needs to be said on the Eucharist has been said.

I know you have already, but spend some more time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Pray, and pray and pray. God will reveal himself to you, if you let Him.



Take care, and my prayers are with you.

[Hananiah]

Bob's use of 1 Corinthians 11 is absolutely atrocious. He seems to think that by highlighting the phrase "do this in remembrance of me" he is demonstrating that Jesus intended the Eucharist to be a symbolic reminder, whereas in fact it proves the exact opposite. Bob needs to learn what the word [i]anamnesis[/i] means.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 20 2004, 03:29 PM'] I think it is now. Your attacking not asking. I don't care if you've been 50 years. If you studied the subject and still deny it thats your thing. [/quote]
so YOU personally are saying that it DOESN'T matter how long he's been around or how much he's proven himself...EVEN IF IT WAS [b]50[/b] YEARS...you'll still always question his motives?

you sound a lot like christians I know.