Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1790833' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:25 PM']its nearly mathimatically impossible for everything to have happened by pure accident.[/quote] I don't know what you mean by accident here or how it is applicable to contemporary cosmology. Moreover, simply restating your previous claim is not a mathematical proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1790616' date='Feb 24 2009, 06:41 PM']You are free to enter to contract, you are not free to call it a marriage. Marriage has a religious origin and is a relationship between a man and woman for unity and procreation. Because of its value to society, society has made rules to protect the relationship.[/quote] What do you mean by marriage? I certianly don't think the arrangment between Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar would be what you consider marriage. Moreover I think it is quite questionable that marriage has a "religious origin". Certianly a sacramental marriage is linked to particular branches of Christianity, but that is not what the state recognises by "marriage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='track2004' post='1790682' date='Feb 24 2009, 06:28 PM']To Cmom The laws surrounding slavery and the death penalty come from religion. The laws we changed. The body part discussion and what goes where to make babies isn't what we're talking about. I'm talking about contractual law, about whether I have the right to get married or whether I should. Marriage law doesn't care if you and your partner can make babies. Traditional marriage law let old people and barren people marry and you have to be really close to God to get around that, traditionally. And to rkwright You're right there are contracts you can't make, but there aren't many. I can't sell you a baby. I can't hire you to kill someone. I can't enter into a contract that will require you to do something illegal. I'm reasonably sure what gay couples do doesn't qualify under those categories. I'm arguing that gay marriage is consistent with current contract law. I'm arguing that your religious beliefs shouldn't define contract law. Gay marriage wasn't outlawed, per se, there was a preemptive strike against it. It hasn't been legal*. Democracy woks by changing and adapting to new ideas and new understandings of the world. Democracy will follow me on this issue, whether I win this argument on PM or not. *It was legal here for a minute and now it's not for a minute, but that will change. As far as I know we are the only place is was then it wasn't.[/quote] Slavery is NOT from religion. Slavery is from dictator's, simple as that. They would conquer another country and force that country to do work for them. I would really like to see the evidence where slavery is from religion. Not to mention the death penelty. The death penalty is an eye for an eye and if you don't believe in God and say that man was at one point a neanderthal, then that is when the death penalty started. When someone would kill someone elses family, they would die. The only way you can say the death penalty came from religion is if your saying there is a God and Adam and Eve were the first people on earth and not neathderthal's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1790865' date='Feb 24 2009, 08:49 PM']What do you mean by marriage? I certianly don't think the arrangment between Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar would be what you consider marriage. Moreover I think it is quite questionable that marriage has a "religious origin". Certianly a sacramental marriage is linked to particular branches of Christianity, but that is not what the state recognises by "marriage".[/quote] But what came first, America or religion? What was marriage based off of? Christian ideals? So in the case of America, marriage is a religious origin. America bases off of the puritans who formed the government. I'll get to your above post when I get the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1790835' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:30 PM']scientifically if brothers and sisters mate and create off spring, the human race will die off due to the deformed genetics.[/quote] That could happen if a majority or substantial minority of the population turned to such relationships. Regulations with regards to reproduction could be set in place if such relationships began to endanger to population. [quote]Also, by your theory, the government are restricting my rights [mod]Mature content. --Era Might[/mod]. Or the government is recstricing my right to blah blah blah. The government has a duty to restrict things and put limitations on the public. If there is no restrictions, then we have anarchy. Which does not work as a form of government.[/quote] I did not say the government can not impose restrictions. In a secular state, however, there must be a rational, objectively verifiable reason for such limitations, it can not be because a segment of the population beleives that some supernatural dictation exists. Hence my Islamic example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1790869' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:52 PM']But what came first, America or religion?[/quote] The land mass. With regards to the current secular state it was form by individuals deriving most of their intelectual foundation from Anglo-Protestant thinkers and contemporary forms of the religion. [quote]What was marriage based off of? Christian ideals? So in the case of America, marriage is a religious origin. America bases off of the puritans who formed the government.[/quote] Did the Puritans have a Sacramental theology? One in the same sense of Christianity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1790545' date='Feb 24 2009, 05:52 PM'][mod]Mature content. --Era Might[/mod][/quote] Yes, Hassan, that is how a marriage is consummated. I wouldn't say "boils down to" - there's obviously more than that - but that's an essential element. Because such an act [mod]Mature content. --Era Might[/mod] is one that is open to creation of new human life, and the foundation of a new family. It is for that reason that marriage is sacred and worthy of society's recognition. [mod]Mature content. --Era Might[/mod] The "gays" need to grow up, and realize that the rest of the world does not exist to cater to their every whim. And, yeah, Sean Penn is a liberal idiot, but that's a redundant statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1790875' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:59 PM']Did the Puritans have a Sacramental theology? One in the same sense of Christianity?[/quote] I have yet to hear of a Puritan who was down with "gay marriage." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1790638' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:05 PM']It simply won't be a marriage. Marriage is a relationship between two different "others".[/quote] Not in the Old Testament. [quote]A same sex union is just that - the same. There is no "other" in the relationship.[/quote] except, of course, the other person [quote]Your brains and bodies are the same, there is not the possiblity of creating a "whole" - you are two identical parts side by side.[/quote] Two men are identical? I don't think so, not genetically or even physiologically. Just how "other" do two individuals need to be in order to constitute a "whole"? [quote]Its not the rules that are the problem, they simply reflect reality, its the nature of being human beings.[/quote] No, it reflects certian Christian sects theological assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1790871' date='Feb 24 2009, 08:54 PM']That could happen if a majority or substantial minority of the population turned to such relationships. Regulations with regards to reproduction could be set in place if such relationships began to endanger to population. I did not say the government can not impose restrictions. In a secular state, however, there must be a rational, objectively verifiable reason for such limitations, it can not be because a segment of the population beleives that some supernatural dictation exists. Hence my Islamic example.[/quote] Wait, you just contradicted yourself. By putting restrictions on reprodution are you not infringing on their rights to create offsrping? Your infringing of their rights as people. You can't have it both ways, its either one or the other. Except our consitution is based off a higher power and our laws are based off of such. Just think how often the term "In God we Trust" is used in government. Our laws and form of government were not formed from secular views and over time our government became more religious. Our laws were based off of a higher power, more to the point, a christian higher power and slowly over time secular views have come into government. Just think about how many laws come from the bible. Remember, a lot of the laws were based off of the bible since our government was formed by the puritans. The problem with you second point is that anyone can say anything is infringing on thier rights. You cant have a government and have it not infringe on every person's percied right, since its IMPOSSIBLE. The government has to appease the majority of its citizens. [mod]Mature content. --Era Might[/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' post='1790884' date='Feb 24 2009, 10:07 PM']I have yet to hear of a Puritan who was down with "gay marriage." [/quote] of course not, that does not mean that the Puritans have the exact same concept of marriage as do Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1790875' date='Feb 24 2009, 08:59 PM']The land mass. With regards to the current secular state it was form by individuals deriving most of their intelectual foundation from Anglo-Protestant thinkers and contemporary forms of the religion. Did the Puritans have a Sacramental theology? One in the same sense of Christianity?[/quote] America as a society, since a land mass does not constitute America. The people who helped form our laws, that's when it became america. Puritan society is based off of christianity and the bible. There rules were derived from the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1790892' date='Feb 24 2009, 10:11 PM']Wait, you just contradicted yourself. By putting restrictions on reprodution are you not infringing on their rights to create offsrping? Your infringing of their rights as people. You can't have it both ways, its either one or the other.[/quote] No, in that case there is a rational, objectively verifiable reason for setting restrictions. You need to read more carefully, with all due respect. I have never denied that a government can restrict the rights of individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1790895' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:12 PM']of course not, that does not mean that the Puritans have the exact same concept of marriage as do Catholics.[/quote] the puritans based their concepts of marriage and laws off of the bible and christianity. Catholics base their concepts of marriage and laws off of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=90982&view=findpost&p=1790343"]Sirklawd's post here[/url] sums it all up very nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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