We Should Be Ashamed Of Our Hatred -mature Content!

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1790308' date='Feb 24 2009, 10:31 AM']Not to long ago Christian in the south used the Bible to justify their opposition to inter racial marriage. I was refering to that. If you beleive inter racial marriage is wrong that's fine, and if you beleive gay marriage is wrong that's fine. If you do not want your church to sanction such unions that is absolutly fine. But please don't use the secular state or federal laws to force your religious beleifs on others.[/quote]


They still do.

The difference is that one is wrong and the other is not. People are people. People of different backgrounds are not different species. (I refuse to say race because the human race is one race, otherwise people of different "races" could not produce offspring). This is apples and oranges. One impedes on the dignity of human persons (homosexual actions) and the other doesn't (mixed marriages)

That Christians in the south use Genesis to defend racism (not really another word for it...) doesn't make it morally correct. It doesn't even make it semi-correct, because well, that's not what it says.

It's all based on dignity of personhood. We all have it. SSA or not. And we are called to respect the dignity of ourselves and everyone else. SSA or not. We are all given struggles. Some struggle with SSA. Some struggle with pedophilia, some struggle with sex addiction, some with pride, some with gluttony, some with sloth, some with various other things. Our struggles should not impede the dignity of our person or of other persons' persons.

Edited February 24, 2009 by missionseeker

[track2004]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1790263' date='Feb 24 2009, 08:49 AM'] Unforunately for your argument, there is a such thing as truth so no matter if you want to believe in homosexuality being "morally wrong" or not, it is. Human beings are not made to have sexual relationships with persons of the same sex. It is, like it or not, perverse: contrary and counter





What constitues a "meaningful life" ?

Just to clarify, people who suffer from SSA have the same rights and opprotunities as everyone else. They also even have the opprotunity to get married and have children (with a person of the opposite sex, as human beings, judging from how "sex" actually works, are made to do).

A homosexual civil union or "marriage" is not a "right"

A human right is based on the dignity of the human person and what we should and should not afford that human being in light of that dignity. Homosexual relationships are against the dignity of human persons. We are not made for such relations. In the end, homosexual marriage is not a "right" in the sense of something that a human being deserves in light of his human dignity, or something that society should legitimize.





lame.[/quote]

Marriage may not be some intrinsic right, but it is an important part of culture. It means something to everyone. It means something legally and spiritually. And I want to get married when I grow up. I don't want a "commitment ceremony." I don't want to be some lady's domestic partner. I don't want to have a civil union*. I want a wife.

Milk was about equal rights. While I want a wife when I grow up, I want to feel safe in my neighborhood and job. There are a lot of other problems we (teh gays) have that I think we should be focusing on more than marriage. But when you make arguments about how I shouldn't get married, how the kind of married I want is wrong, how the love I have for my (fictional right now) girl is not right, it hurts.

Maybe it shouldn't, maybe I should be stronger, but it still does. I know you disagree with me about my rights and my life, but using words like "perverse" and scare quotes all the time and rolling your eyes doesn't make me feel like this is an honest discussion.

In the end I'll still want to get married to a lady and you'll still think that's wrong. I'm fine with that as long as we both learn something, or at least both respect each other in the end.


* I'd actually like if everyone could enter into contracts in the courts without the religious stuffs attached and everyone got civil unioned because really it's about the laws. What you do in front of God doesn't have anything to do with the State.

[track2004]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1790367' date='Feb 24 2009, 01:33 PM']I think what makes their lives "meaningful" is requiring that the REST of us jump up and down and squeal with giddiness and throw parties to celebrate their lifestyles. Unless everyone is on board with it, their lives have no meaning, I guess.[/quote]

We don't care what you do. We don't care if you're happy or squealing. We just want you to leave us alone and let us do what you're doing. We just want to live our lives in peace with a husband or wife and kids. We want the rights you have with your husband or wife. We want the rather lame stuff that you get.

And you don't need to come to the parade, we do fine on our own.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='track2004' post='1790388' date='Feb 24 2009, 01:36 PM']Marriage may not be some intrinsic right, but it is an important part of culture.[/quote]

Marriage is a Sacrament. Sacraments do not change.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='track2004' post='1790392' date='Feb 24 2009, 02:41 PM']We don't care what you do. We don't care if you're happy or squealing. We just want you to leave us alone and let us do what you're doing. We just want to live our lives in peace with a husband or wife and kids. [u]We want the rights you have with your husband or wife[/u]. We want the rather lame stuff that you get.

And you don't need to come to the parade, we do fine on our own.[/quote]

underlined point = the only point that has to do with the political side of this. I dont want to sound mean, but I just want to point out that you can already have everything else. You dont need a governing body to tell you that your wife is your wife. Too often this argument is caught up in 'emotional equality', wherein homosexuals seem to be looking toward the government for teh final verdict that their love is just as good as heterosexual love.

No one needs a government's approval for their love. And, let me a repeat, a government does not have any power to declare that your wife is your wife - to anyone. A government, particularly a democratic government, is a dynamic construct. It's definitions of whats what can change in an instant, and from one arbitrary geographic point to another. Therefore it cant be the source of anything...

Other people are beyond this issue, and are looking merely for the rights heterosexual couples enjoy. On that point, I would like your opinion of my long post above (please ignore any blunt or harsh attitude, its only directed at sean penn).

[Lil Red]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1790238' date='Feb 24 2009, 03:13 AM']Palin - it's funny how just about everyone thought she was an incompetent bimbo except for pro-lifers.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
uh, not Camile Paglia.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='bonkers' post='1790295' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:59 AM']Sure, it is the human condition to think that we little humans with our [s]pee[/s] brains are capable of[/quote]
pea brain

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1790309' date='Feb 24 2009, 10:39 AM']Sure there is truth. Given your obvious hatred of Uzbeks and your overt Russian nationalism I doubt you will take a Polish Logician seriously but his work was of great importance.

[url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/tarski-truth/"]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/tarski-truth/[/url]


Your free to beleive that, but why take that personal beleif and try to force it on others?[/quote]

Because that's what politics is all about. Its about trying to get your personal beliefs written into law. Most american's have the belief that every man, women and child have the right to free speech. That is a belief our for father's had and forced on the general population. Was it bad for them to force this on the general population? Should we not have freedom of speech? Politics and government are all about the majorities beliefs out into action.

[havok579257]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1790283' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:35 AM']I find it very strange this perfect god demonstrates his perfect justice and love via an eternal torture chamber. Like there is no other alternative, it has to be an eternal torture chamber otherwise god isn't perfect. Very strange indeed. But then again, there's the whole ignorance and lack of grace thing I'm subject too blinding me from seeing this very obvious truth. Doesn't that sound the least bit odd to you? Doesn't it sound more like something some men made up to make people fearful?



[/quote]


God does not condemn anyone to hell, we do that ourselfs. Look at heaven as God's house. There are rules to get in and if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Its the same concept of your house. I am sure you have rules for your house and who you let in. I imagine you don't let child molestors into your house with your children(hypothetical)? Same applies to God's house. He has simple rules. Follow them and you get to enter into heaven. Not only that, he will go one further. If you break on of his rules, all you need to do is ask for his forgivness and he will forgive you and let you in. Heck, break his rules 9 million times and as long as you ask for his forgiveness and repent, he will let you in. Now how does this not sound all love? How does it not sound all loving when God forgives people for whatever they have done. Somethign we as humans can not even do.

One more thing. If your driving your car and decide to go 90mph in a 45mph zone and get pulled over and get a ticket, who's fault is it? Is it the cop's fault for pulling you over or is it your fault for speeding? Same logic applies to God. Is it his fault you in hell? Or is it your fault for killing 100 people and having no remorse and not asking his forgiveness?

[havok579257]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1790287' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:46 AM']I'm not being deliberately offensive. If you claimed I was deceived by the devil or ignorant, I would react offensively but your intention would not be to offend me. Likewise, I think your beliefs are the equivalent of adult fairy tales. If you were an atheist, how would you think about Christian stories such as crucifixtion, resurrection and things like heaven, hell, angels and demons? They would probably sound really absurd to you and it is in my opinion that they are.[/quote]


Its mathamatically more proboble that there is a creator of the universe and everything in it than it all being by accident.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1790314' date='Feb 24 2009, 11:46 AM'][mod]Mature content. --Era Might[/mod][/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1790512' date='Feb 24 2009, 05:12 PM']Because that's what politics is all about. Its about trying to get your personal beliefs written into law. Most american's have the belief that every man, women and child have the right to free speech. That is a belief our for father's had and forced on the general population. Was it bad for them to force this on the general population? Should we not have freedom of speech? Politics and government are all about the majorities beliefs out into action.[/quote]


Obviously we have very different views on the correct role of government.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1790343' date='Feb 24 2009, 12:54 PM']im going to be especially blunt here. I'm sick and tired of people who fight tooth and nail for gay rights only to duck and twist at the prospect of other forms of marriage becoming legal too. When polygamy is brought up, they just write off the idea as absurd. No, what is absurd is someone fighting for equal rights and then putting limits on it.

If you are fighting for equal marriage rights know that you [i]have to be open to every form of marriage[/i] not just the one you are fighting for. And you have to be for these forms of marriage [i]right now[/i]. Not in some possible slippery sloped future, but right. now.

polygyny, polyandry, polyamory, bigamy, circle marriages, incestual marriages, human-animal marraiges...[/quote]


I don't care what the structure of marriage is so long as all the parties involved are adults concenting to the arrangment. That would not include "human-animal" marriages as an animal has no was to concent to such an arrangment.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1790546' date='Feb 24 2009, 04:54 PM']Obviously we have very different views on the correct role of government.[/quote]


and what is your definition of a democratic government? mine is to do the will of the people and with a democracy, obviously it is up to the majority.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1790462' date='Feb 24 2009, 04:08 PM']Marriage is a Sacrament. Sacraments do not change.[/quote]


According to the Roman Catholic Church. Unfortunatly for you your Church is not the foundation of our secular state. If you cannot present an objective argument demonstrating the sacrosanct nature of marriage and one that is in line with what the Church calls a "sacrament" then you have no right, in a secular government, to try and use the lagal system to coerce other members of the population to conform to your religious faith.