Forgiving The Unrepentent

[Paddington]

DairyG!

This thread was pretty cool.

[Christopher Brandon]

Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.

thats motivation enough for me.

[dairygirl4u2c]

a lot of new agey types like to say "you can't forgive, all is forgiven" or "forgiveness is a human construct not of God". at first, i thought they were lunes. but then thinking about it, perhaps not.

first, as was being hinted at earlier, there's a lot to be said about defining this stuff. 'forgiveness in principle', 'reconciliation (if 'forgiveness' means reconciling, then you'd by definition require repentence be done), 'releasing emotional baggage', 'wishing them well, praying for them', 'if God forgives you, I do'. i think that's most of em.

each one could be called forgiveness at some level. and if reconciliation is tradionally tie with foregiveness (all the bible stories i mentioned, when explaining what was happening, involved a lack of communiion 'heathen', 'david's test of his brothers', 'shake your boots the dust' etc), then it's just semantics whether we should forgive or not.
but there's folks, which this discussion is mostly about, who want to say 'don't forgive, in principle'. what does this mean? well, if that person who doesn't forgive, does all theother incidental things, like prayin for the person, loving him, etc, that the person who does forgive... then all that's left is indeed that principle.
i know that's a bit of a truism, and what's i think mostly at stake in this debate.
but now that ive laid it out, i think ya can clearly see more why perhaps it is a human construct.what's the principle of the matter have to do with anything, when there's no reconciliation, no union, or no prayers etc?
when it's all said and done, it's just a principle. it's not a lot. in effect, it doesn't mean a lot. and to God, the principle might not mean anything. only the substance might mean something, whether there's reconciliation etc.

as the catholic encyclopeida said, the protestant reformation is what caused this distinction that we should forgive all, and that foregiveness doesn't require repentence. but perhaps the true heart of orthodox religion was always implying reconciliation ad repentence with forgiveness. and the man made side of orthodoxy is what caused us to observe that, indeed, forgiveness does require repentence for the principle of the matter, at least per orthodoxy.
i mean, it's totally reasonable, not just plausible, to say that the principle of the matter means nothing. kinda like the apostles arguing over who is greater. it's just fluff.

and it can be dangerous to think 'dont forgive' even if you try to be nuanced about it, cause langauge shapes our view... it's hard to compartmentalize that stuff. saying 'i dont forgive' and doing all the otehr good christian stuff on the matter, is tough to do, by the sheer idea of no forgiving them- ya got to train yourself against the notion that is mainstream that you should forgive all, and training might not go over so well.
it's safer just to say the principle of the matter is fluff, and praying for them etc reconciliation is all that matters. and whether you want to call it forgiveness or not, is an arbitrary meaningless label.

Edited September 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Sojourner]

Interesting thread, dairy.

I've skimmed the first few pages and have a few thoughts in response to things some have posted. This is a topic I've thought about on several occasions over the years.

From a personal mental/emotional health standpoint, I think forgiveness is essential, regardless of the repentance or unrepentance of the other party. If you don't forgive, and deal with the emotions surrounding the situation, it is very easy to slip into bitterness. I have found, through my own and others' experiences, it is a process, even more so when the other party is unrepentant or unwilling to engage in healing an injury to a relationship (which can often involve the other party refusing to extend forgiveness to you). A dear friend of mine, who has spoken on this topic frequently and done a lot of counseling in this area, said he sometimes has to repeatedly forgive people -- not to their faces, necessarily, but when a memory fraught with negative emotions surfaces, he says it as a prayer. "God, I forgave so and so, please help me to dispel the remaining negative emotions." It can take a long time, if the wound is deep enough.

When an injury occurs, it often is in the course of a relationship. So in many cases, part of forgiveness, in my opinion, is examining your own conscience and determining where and whether repentance is required for your own behavior. In situation where the other party is unwilling to participate in the process, for whatever reason, you still need to clean your side of the street, both by forgiving sin or injury and by offering sincere repentance. If the other party is unwilling to accept it, and you have sought absolution through the sacrament of confession, I believe you have done what can be done.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='22 February 2009 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1235324899' post='1788242']
"Forgives us our trespasses as we forgive those" is very clear. We are asked to forgive as God forgives. The other person doesn't have to repent, offer apologies, or acknowledge the wrongdoing. etc. The point is not what the other person does, its what we do as a response. It is not minimizing the consequences of their action on us, nor is it pretending those consequences were not important, or that they may have to suffer consequences as a result of their action. It doesn't involve forgetting or not taking actions to protect ourselves in the future. Forgiveness means getting to the point that I can say I forgive this or that, and letting go of the emotions involved.
[/quote]
I think this is right on.

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='22 February 2009 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1235359382' post='1788869']
Whether or not forgiving the people we "judge" to be unrepentant is a "requirement" ... it is better to be liberal in the forgiveness department.[/quote]
I definitely agree with this, not only out of the desire to be treated with the same measure myself, but also so that bitterness and anger do not fester. That can have disastrous implications on a person's emotional health and well-being if it is not addressed.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='24 February 2009 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1235491335' post='1790319']
Its judgemental [ in my opinion] to decide if a person has repented "enough" for me to forgive them. I don't see God asking me anywhere to make those kind of judgements, in fact, we are particularly cautioned against judging someone's heart. I do see very plainly Scripture saying that my sins will not be forgiven if I do not forgive others. So the idea that only those people in my life that I have forgive are those who are sorry for it hurting me in some way is repugnant.
I see nothing christ-like about it.
[/quote]
I completely agree. I think once repentance has been offered, we are required to forgive. Unless we do not wish forgiveness ourselves, of course. Just as forgiveness can be a process, I think repentance can be as well. While a person may not be completely initially sincere in repenting, I think the initial offer of repentance is a step in the right direction and can eventually lead to re-integration of the relationship.

[quote name='Winchester' date='24 February 2009 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1235492264' post='1790328']
Just because I've forgiven someone doesn't mean that there are not consequences for their actions. Loss of trust and friendship are not imcompatible with forgiveness. We Catholics believe in purgation, in spite of sins being forgiven. If you can pray for your enemy to go to Heaven, you have essentially forgiven him. It doesn't mean you have to eat dinner with him.
[/quote]
I agree that there are consequences for actions, but I think that, absent an indication that further harm will result from continued contact (such as in a situation of abuse), the norm should be that we move toward healing of a relationship.

Forgiveness should, in my opinion, be modeled after the forgiveness God offers us -- which absolutely involves an invitation to sup at His table. God's forgiveness is all about restoring an individual's relationship with God and the Church, and bringing about wholeness. It is a re-integration of a relationship that disintegrated due to sin. I'm not saying this needs to happen overnight, because as I noted earlier forgiveness is a process. But I think that should be the goal.

[dairygirl4u2c]

now that i think the 'principle of forgiveness' as discussed above, when all incidental things are done in a christian way whether one 'forgives' or not (praying for them, loving them etc), is just fluff. i look at the debate about it, as the lesser of two evils. which is a better man made paradigm? to release the princple of the matter, or to not release the principle? they're both unhealthy, cause they're artificial. but...
releasing probably is better, but it's not tied to anything concrete like reconciliation, and can be a dangerous injustice, as i quoted JPII as saying (in more orthodox ways, you don't forgive until they repent if they know they're wrong). not releasing, can be tied to the baggage that you're suppose to have done away with- as long as you're careful not to be tied to it, i suppose you might be okay, but risk not stressing the mercy side of the justice/mercy coin, as should always be done.
they're nebulous, just cause they're artificial human constructs, that's probably why it's so difficult to pick one.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i oftne think about this thread. questions, comments, words of wisdom?

-the woman who went to Jesus and didnt get stoned when he said "let him without sin, cast the first stone". it'd seem she was sorry, or at least a christian "have they condemned you? "no one has, Lord". good example of forgiving without repentence, perhaps. repentence seems to have occurred, arguably, hard to say. plus, what if she didnt stop sinning? you'd think he'd not forgive her. 'forgiving the unrepentent who knows they are wrong' would seems to be like forgiving even if she didnt stop sinning.

'forgive them father, they know not what they do' is the best example, i suppose of total forgiveness.

[Nihil Obstat]

In my opinion it comes down to this:

Everyone can be forgiven, and we are called to universal, unconditional forgiveness for the sake of our own souls. God offers the same, readily.
The question is whether or not a person accepts this forgiveness. If a person does not accept it, they can't receive the grace associated with forgiveness, and can't be delivered from their sins (because they don't want to be) but if they accept sincerely the forgiveness, their sins are wiped away.

[HisChildForever]

Not sure if this is quite on topic, but I recently forgave someone who did me many (MANY) wrongs that still affect me. I forgave this person, because it seemed like this person truly turned his life around. I forgave the person not only for his sake but for mine as well. However, it turns out that he did not change his life at all - only on the surface - and is putting someone else through the same Hell I went through. I am therefore convinced, based on my experiences and what this someone else is telling me (a person who I trust), that the man is an absolute psychotic sociopath. He has no clue I know of his recent wickedness. All that aside, I would not take back my forgiveness. I just feel disgust and pity. UGH.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1235456618' post='1790058']
interesting point, reiterating my point about forgivnes implying repentence, and being the orthodox standard, from the catholic encyclopedia:

"Until the time of the Reformation no theologian ever thought of denying the necessity of contrition for the forgiveness of sin. But with the coming of Luther and his doctrine of justification by faith alone the absolute necessity of contrition was excluded as by a natural consequence."
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm[/url]
[/quote]

i'm not sure if i saw how people got around this catholic encyclopedia reference.
i know they ignore it.
do they say 'it's not infallible'? do they deny that it's part of the ordinary magisterium? not that i'm saying it is or isn't, i'm just wonderin.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i had been thinking about this topic lately. the catholic encyclopedia says contrition has always been understood as a prereq for forgivenes. and i think a lot of what Jesus says about forgiveness doesn't clarify unrepentent people etc. but he did say the measure you use will be measued unto you, and that you are to love and pray for your enemies. if we are loving and praying for them, and especially when we ourselves are no perfect, and the measure we use will be used against us.... it seems to all collapse to the idea that we should forgive very very easily, be very gracious. etc

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hmm... here's just what I think.

 

I think that God wants to forgive us, but we need to repent, because then He can take away the guilt and we can be reconciled. Otherwise, we hold on to our guilt.

 

Jesus said, if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.

 

I tend to just take this as it is... we need to forgive. Even if the other person doesn't repent.

 

I know it was commented on how secular culture sometimes talks about forgiveness to set us free, etc, - and while I am skeptical with popular culture, - I see the importance of forgiveness.

 

The way I try to see it has been influenced by a parable of Jesus - the man who was forgiven of a huge debt, but wouldn't forgive his neighbour a small debt.

 

If I've sinned against God, and neighbour... if i've hurt God and nailed Him to the cross with my sins.... and He forgives me... how can I not forgive someone who hurt me?

 

I think the Scripture that was mentioned, talks about associating with those who are not repentant like heretics etc...I think it's talking about something particular, to me it reminds me of the Church excommunicating people.

 

But I think in our hearts, we need to forgive, and pray for the person to repent and be forgiven by God. That's an act of mercy. Jesus said, we need to do acts of mercy to experience His Mercy.

 

this is my understanding :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.

thats motivation enough for me.

Good point, - if Jesus included this in the prayer we are to say to the Father, then this is important :)

[dairygirl4u2c]

i still dont think this is a clear issue. all the authoritative people i find on the internet (including lack of authoritative people who say otherwise), pastors, jimmy akin, catholic encylopedia etc say repentence is required before forgiveness. that is the orthodox idea, you repent and then are forgiven.
even JPII says "

Quote

Properly understood, justice constitutes, so to speak, the goal of forgiveness. In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.

JPII forgave his shooter. then, i do know the shooter was sorry too at least eventually. maybe the pope was talking about God's forgieness etc, but it's just strange that God is held to a different standard than we are. i realize we can't know a lot of peopel hearts and all, but sometimes it's clear, and in any c ase it/s as if we are still held to a different standard.

"forgive us as we forgive others" in the our father coud imply repentance, as we ask forgiveness in that same sentence, conditioned etc.

don't think it's clear. and a lot of it has to do w fear of being held to high standards myself.... but a lot is motivated by love and prayer for enemies as Jesus said. and i have no basis to hold grudges or not forgive liberally etc.

Edited March 13, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

here is another article from catholic.com catholic answers saying you don't have to forgive the unrepentent, cause "God doesn't". 
i know the first article from that site i saw saying the same thing was from a founder himself, karl keating. 

 

A man wrote to me recently—I'll call him Robert—telling me an absolute horror story about his ex-wife. To say she acted uncharitably during and after their separation and subsequent divorce would be an understatement. Of course, I am only hearing one side of the story, but his question boiled down to this: “Am I required to forgive her even though she is not sorry for anything she has done, and then to forget about what she has done because God "forgets" when he forgives and calls us to do the same? I must confess to you that I just cannot live this because I believe she is dangerous to both me and our children.”

Unfortunately, scenarios like this are not rare. But they do end up raising some very important questions about the nature of forgiveness. There are at least five points to be considered for clarifying the issues at hand:

1. We are not called to go beyond what God himself does when it comes to forgiveness. Many Christians believe with Robert that they are obliged to forgive even those who are not in the least bit sorry for their offenses against them. And on the surface this sounds really... Christian. But is it true? God himself doesn't do it. He only forgives those who repent of their sins. II Cor. 7:10 says, “... godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”  I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he... will forgive our sins..."

Our Lord obviously has not and will not forgive the poor souls in Hell right now for the simple reason that they did not ask for forgiveness. This seems as clear as clear can be. The question is, are we required to do more than God does when it comes to forgiveness?

Jesus seems to answer this question for us in Luke 17:3-4:

… if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

According to this text, and as we would suspect, Jesus only requires his followers to forgive those who are sorry for their offenses just as God does. And this only make sense. Colossians 3:13 says we are to called to forgive each other "as the Lord has forgiven [us]." 

Some will say at this point, “Didn’t Jesus forgive everyone from the cross when he said, ‘Forgive them, for they know not what they do,’ in Luke 23:34?” Actually, he didn’t. He petitioned the Father for those who had beaten and crucified him to be forgiven revealing his will that “all men… be saved” (I Tim. 2:4). But this was not a declaration that even these men were actually forgiven, much less a declaration that he was forgiving everyone for all time.

2. We have to distinguish between our calling to forgive those who are sorry and ask for forgiveness and our call to loveeveryone without exception, including those who have wronged us and are not sorry that they did. Sometimes these two concepts are conflated. 

St. Thomas Aquinas tells us love is "willing the good of the other" selflessly.  (cf. I Cor. 13:5). In a sense, this is all God can do because "God is love" (I Jn. 4:8). God can do nothing other than will to share the infinite good of himself with every single person ever created or conceived. . . . even the souls who ultimately reject his love and forgiveness because a God not loving would be a God contradicting his own essence, which is absurd.

Thus, God's love is unconditional because in one sense it has nothing to do with the other. It comes from within regardless of what happens outside of the godhead. This brings profound meaning to Jesus' words: "Love one another as I have loved you” (John 15:12). In essence, Jesus is here calling us to love with that same unconditional love with which he loves as the God-man. Regardless of varying situations and relationships in our lives, "God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 5:5) empowering us to "will the good of the other" regardless of what "the other" may bring our way.   

On the other hand, forgiveness, as we've said, is not unconditional. It's a two-way street. God offers his forgiveness to all out of his unconditional love; and therefore, so must all Christians. But here's the rub. Because forgiveness is dependent upon the other, it cannot actually take place until there are willing partners on both sides of the divide. 

3. But God says, "I am He who blots out your transgression for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins," in Isaiah 25:23. Shouldn't we do the same?

This was Robert's point. "When God forgives, he forgets. So if we must forgive, we must forget as well, right?"

First of all, in Robert's case, there is no imperative to forgive in the first place because there is no evidence of contrition. But even if there were to be forgiveness here, forgiveness must be properly understood.

There is no such thing as divine amnesia. Jesus will not be forever in heaven asking, "How did these holes get in my hands and feet?" "I will not remember" is an anthropomorphic way of saying God will not forever hold sins against us that have been forgiven. This is not to say there are not temporal consequences for sin. Purgatory is a stark reminder of this.

I must interject here that Robert was actually very relieved when he discovered he did not have to turn his brain off and endanger his children in order to be a good Catholic! Poor Robert was thinking he had to forget everything his ex-wife did and act as though she didn't do anything wrong. And that is why he thought he just could not live the faith any longer. The truth is, God does not "forget" in that sense, and neither should we. Not only should Robert remember what his ex-wife had done, but he should act with precaution in order to protect himself and his children.

4. Jesus said "love your enemies" in Matthew 5:44. He did not say we have to "like" our enemies and he did not say we don't have enemies. If you proclaim and live truth contradicting a world receiving its marching orders from "the father of lies," you are promised to have enemies. We could start with the guys who want to kill us. Put them down in the “enemies” column.

Jesus calls us to “love [our] enemies and pray for those who persecute [us], so that [we] may be sons of [our] Father who is in heaven.” That means love is not an option; it is a commandment. But loving enemies does not mean you necessarily want to have them over to the house for supper. “Love” doesn’t necessarily mean “like.” Indeed, it may be unhealthy or even dangerous to even be around your enemy as may well be true in Robert's case. 

5. So what do we do if we find ourselves in a situation like Robert? 

The first step to loving and forgiving as God does is to recognize that we cannot do it apart from Christ. Meditating upon what Christ did for us on the cross and the fact that he loves us infinitely and forgives us over and over again is essential. Ultimately, we have to get to the place where we acknowledge our powerlessness so that we can allow Christ to love and forgive in us and through us.

I recommended to Robert specifically that he ask God to help him to truly will the good for his ex-wife—and a telling sign of whether this is so would be when he could sincerely pray to God for good to come to his ex-wife—then he could rest assured that he is loving her as Christ commanded. 

 

the years since ive posted this thread, i just say "if in doubt, forgive". i doesn't seem wise to be telling people they don't have to, or soemtimes people say they shouldn't forgive teh unrepentent. 

 

im mostly reminded about "the measure with which you use will be measued unto you" from Jesus. and general quotes about how "love makes everything grow". love defers to the enemy etc. 

we may be repentent almost always or want to be repentant, but if we ever weren't we'd hope God had our back. or, we'd hope that God would always defer to us, 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't remember if I commented on this thread before...

but in my view, God wants to forgive us but we need to repent because when He forgives us, our sin actually goes away, so we need to repent and ACCEPT His forgiveness.

With each other, we need to forgive a person even if they dont' repent. Jesus said, if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. If God forgives us, we need to forgive others.. .and He wants to forgive, we just need to LET Him.