Forgiving The Unrepentent

[havok579257]

i didn't read every post but didn't the pope forgive the man who attempted to assasinate him? Was he repentent?

[kavalamyself]

The Amish believe that forgiving is essential to the practice of their faith. They forgave the man that shot the kids in the classroom. We should take a page out of their book. We can't really tell if someone else is truly sorry only God can. We should forgive for our own soul and move on.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1790974' date='Feb 24 2009, 11:36 PM']i didn't read every post but didn't the pope forgive the man who attempted to assasinate him? Was he repentent?[/quote]

he was, at least eventually.
i dont know who initiated it though, you should research it and get back with us on that.

[dairygirl4u2c]

here is jimmy akin, and catholic.com
it doesn't get much more catholic than that.

[quote]We aren’t obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen "unconditional" forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent’s annoyance).

This is not what is required of us.

Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him."

Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.

The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.

If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn’t otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior). But it isn’t required of us that we forgive the person.

This may strike some people as odd. They may have heard unconditional love and forgiveness preached so often that the idea of not indiscriminately forgiving everybody sounds unspiritual to them. They might even ask, "But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?"

I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.

Not everybody is forgiven. Otherwise, we’d all be walking around in a state of grace all the time and have no need of repentance to attain salvation. God doesn’t like people being unforgiven, and he is willing to grant forgiveness to all, but he isn’t willing to force it on people who don’t want it. If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.

Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray "Forgive us our trespasses," because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness.[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1791686' date='Feb 25 2009, 11:37 PM']here is jimmy akin, and catholic.com
it doesn't get much more catholic than that.[/quote]
I still disagree.

[Lilllabettt]

Yeah, I don't buy Jimmy Akin's argument at all.

Even if its true that we only have to forgive people who have repented, we can't judge who has repented and who hasn't, or if they did not know what they were doing, etc.

Also, he mentions that some people will tell a supposedly unrepentant person that they have been pre-emptively forgiven, and that it annoys that person. My experience has been that the graciousness and benevolence of pre-emptive forgiveness has softened hardened hearts and led to that person's repentance.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Lilllabettt

[Wolf]

This is probably one of the most diffcult things to do! I've been in this situation time and time again. Never seems to get any easier.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]They might even ask, "But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?"

I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.[/quote]

yeah i almost still want to go to the 'forgive all' side. it does seem as if it might be meritorious, the best thing to do, even if not required, or held against ya if ya don't. like the quote said.
on hte other hand, i could see forgiving them as wrong. and, i'd feel weird forgiving them if God has not. it's better to forgive when God hasn't than not forgive when God has, though.

i still think something feels fundamentally silly forgiving everyone when God doesn't, and orhodoxy ('our father' (despite arguments to the ocntrary), catholic encylopedia, and all the stuff i've been posting) does not recognize that idea as standard.
neutrality doesn't seem silly, to me it seems humble, let God decide.

yeah. my position is somewhere between 'if God forgives you, i do' and 'forgive them all'

but i sympatheize with the forgiven em all crowd. i just wanted to note the 'most meritorious is to forgive all evem if in no way required' argument is formidable.

---also, i somewhat question teh sincerity of those who say 'forgive me all'. (is it just moral lecuturing that htey themselves wouldn't do, do htey genuinely forgive or give intellecutal assent to the idea but not really do it, do they know tough situations where forgiveness can be tough or is it a mere proposition to them adn they wouldn't know God real truth if it were because they don't understand the empircal side of the matter) when i try to forgive everyone of everything, i tell myself they prob don't know what they're doing even tho it's pretty clear they do. my struggle shouldn't mean people who do forgive are being not sincere or diningenuous, though. but, i do wonder if my experience is how God perceives the matter, more than someone who might forgive indiscriminately. i'm nto sure. i suppoe only God would know.

Edited February 27, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i posted initially: "is it required" "is it the nice thing to do" "is it wrong" etc.
it seems the question now, isn't 'is it required' at least per orthdoxy, the question is 'is it the nice/best thing to do', 'is it wrong'

there's a split about whether it's wrong in fact, but more seem to say it's okay to do and maybe nice. 'whether it's the idea' is the real question in my mind, caue it seems like it wouldn't be wrong.

i could be wrong though, an it be in fact wrong.

Edited February 27, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1792472' date='Feb 27 2009, 02:26 PM']yeah i almost still want to go to the 'forgive all' side. it does seem as if it might be meritorious, the best thing to do, even if not required, or held against ya if ya don't. like the quote said.
on hte other hand, i could see forgiving them as wrong. and, i'd feel weird forgiving them if God has not. it's better to forgive when God hasn't than not forgive when God has, though.

i still think something feels fundamentally silly forgiving everyone when God doesn't, and orhodoxy ('our father' (despite arguments to the ocntrary), catholic encylopedia, and all the stuff i've been posting) does not recognize that idea as standard.
neutrality doesn't seem silly, to me it seems humble, let God decide.

yeah. my position is somewhere between 'if God forgives you, i do' and 'forgive them all'

but i sympatheize with the forgiven em all crowd. i just wanted to note the 'most meritorious is to forgive all evem if in no way required' argument is formidable.

---also, i somewhat question teh sincerity of those who say 'forgive me all'. (is it just moral lecuturing that htey themselves wouldn't do, do htey genuinely forgive or give intellecutal assent to the idea but not really do it, do they know tough situations where forgiveness can be tough or is it a mere proposition to them adn they wouldn't know God real truth if it were because they don't understand the empircal side of the matter) when i try to forgive everyone of everything, i tell myself they prob don't know what they're doing even tho it's pretty clear they do. my struggle shouldn't mean people who do forgive are being not sincere or diningenuous, though. but, i do wonder if my experience is how God perceives the matter, more than someone who might forgive indiscriminately. i'm nto sure. i suppoe only God would know.[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You have no clue if God has forgiven someone or not, and its not our business to know, and that has absolutely nothing to do with our forgiving them.[/color]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i was looking for stuff on the issue from the popes but can't find much.
as is typical from popes, i see mostly fancy walls of truisms, that don't get into much substnace per the details.
but here is this encylclical from JPII that seems to indicate conditions on forgiveness between individuals, not unconditional.

[quote]Properly understood, justice constitutes, so to speak, the goal of forgiveness. In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.[/quote]

Edited March 1, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Saint Therese]

Jesus said we are to forgive as we are forgiven.
What is there to debate about?

[AccountDeleted]

I haven't had time to read all the responses here, but I just try to go along with the Lord's Prayer...

"...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..."

This doesn't say anything about forgiving only those who repent. Forgiveness creates compassion for those who have injured us, even if they never repent, and heals our hearts from the sin of anger.

And since God still lets the sun shine on the righteous and the evil alike, it appears that loving our enemies (even the unrepentent ones) is what He is asking us to do??

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1794081' date='Mar 1 2009, 12:47 AM']Jesus said we are to forgive as we are forgiven.
What is there to debate about?[/quote]


[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1796444' date='Mar 3 2009, 04:19 PM']Wasn't there already three threads on this?[/quote]

nothing, if you haven't read this thread.
ie, the only way it'd make sense for you to be able to even ask that question, is to conclude that you haven't read the thread. otherwise it doesn't make sense for you to ask the question.

look at the catholic encycopedia for the definition of forgiveness, and context historically.
look at what JPII said.
look at the examples i posted from the bible, and theologians.

you're not arguing just with me, you're arguing with JPII, the catho encyclo, etc.

[dairygirl4u2c]

this was still one of my favorite threads, just cause of how eye opening it was to me.
i'm still on the fence between 'forgive em all' and 'i forgive ya if God does' (which takes care of the issue of not forgiving if God has)

i wonder if 'forgiveness' in traditional thought, mightve originally meant 'coming back into fuller communiion', cause you could 'release' the wrong they've done in principle (typically called forgiveness), but not be in communion with them. that sort of communion would almost by definition require repentence, cause it can't exist without mutual giving etc.

i lean towards forgive em all, now though. still a bit undecided.

Edited September 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c