Forgiving The Unrepentent

[dairygirl4u2c]

and yet some more pastors say not to:
[url="http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/forums/viewthread/3470/"]http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/forums/viewthread/3470/[/url]

i almost noticed that no one in my internet searches says to forgive the unrepentant, who actually puts a lot of thought into their analysis. usually people who say that, are the ones who just assume that's what's to be done, and i also notice a whole lot of moral posturing/grandstanding.
but, in the link i just gave, there is at least one fellow who seems to thoughtfully say to forgive everyone.
it's interesting he's outnumbered by thoughtful pastors who disagree with him, though.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.[/quote]
seems to indicate a precondition of forgiveness, ie repentence.

[dairygirl4u2c]

a pastor:
[quote]The parable of the Unmerciful Servant is definitely relevant here. It is, effectively, an exposition of Matthew 6:12, 14-15. You’re quite right that, in a sense, the servant received forgiveness, although I’m not sure that there was any repentance in evidence, only a plea for mercy. But when it became clear from his subsequent actions that the enormous mercy he was shown was deemed a trivial thing in his eyes, it was then withdrawn and he was roundly condemned.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

it is encouraging to see others having the same insights, and same observations i have been having.
this christian says 'there's a lot of books in pop culture that suggest all must be forgiven, but the techichal and in depth materail suggests otherwise. in fact, i posit that it's wrong to forgive the unrepentent:

[quote]Forgiveness is Conditioned Upon Repentance

This may be the most controversial section of the paper. The question of the relationship of forgiveness and repentance in Matthew has not been considered carefully from a theological prospective. The larger question of whether Christ calls his followers to forgive an unrepentant brother is a significant one. [13] The query has received a variety of answers. In general these answers have fallen into two categories. Most popular level books that consider this dilemma follow the advice given by Louis Smedes in his work Forgive and Forget [14]. In Chapter 7 "Forgiving People who do not Care" Smedes confronts the question of the forgiveness of an unrepentant person. He concludes that

Realism, it seems to me, nudges us toward forgiving people who hurt us whether or not they repent for doing it. . . . We need to forgive the unrepentant for our own sake. [15]

He quotes a document called 'Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs' (unfortunately with no footnote) as saying

if a man sin against thee . . . if he repent and confess, forgive him . . . but if he be shameless, and persisteth in his wrongdoing even so forgive him from the heart, and leave to God the avenging. [16]

More technical works that deal with this problem seem to take the opposite approach. These works may be represented by C. F. D. Moule who succinctly states

That forgiveness is conditioned by repentance is true, because reconciliation is a personal relationship, and cannot be achieved without responsiveness on both sides of the relationship. [17]

Does the fact that writers disagree on this problem leave the question of the forgiveness of an unrepentant brother or sister open to interpretation? I believe that a careful examination of the texts will show that it is not only unwise, but also unscriptural to forgive an unrepentant person. This analysis will take the form of three arguments from Matthew's gospel.[/quote]
[url="http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/lamerson-forgive.shtml"]http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/lamerson-forgive.shtml[/url]


and he doesn't see saying 'repentence' is implied in 'forgiveness' in all those 'forgiveness' verses like the our father, as something like a twist.
[quote]When it is said that the wrongdoer must be forgiven 'until seventy times seven' (Mt. xviii. 22, cf. Lk. xvii. 3f), the injunction is that, because of his repentance, grounds of offence are repeatedly to be set aside; they do not count against him.[/quote]


and he goes on forcefully about that verse about treating the unrepentent like a heathen:
[quote]the passage indicates that the person who refuses to repent of his wrongdoing shows that she is not a part of the Christian community. For Matthew "the notion of an unrepentant Christian is an oxymoron. . . . It is scandalous-and, for early Christians, virtually unthinkable-that God's forgiveness would not induce lifelong repentance." [21] The Lord's command to send such people out of the community is a harsh one. These offenders are being told by that action that their behavior has excluded them, and that they are no longer a part of the Christian church. While this statement would have been far more serious in Matthew's day than in ours (there was not another Baptist church down the street that would be happy to have a new member), even today it ought to be a very serious matter.

This excommunication, or putting of a person out of the church and thus outside the Christian community, is done for one reason and with one hope. The reason is, quite simply, a failure to repent. The result that is hoped for is repentance. Church discipline always hopes to restore the fallen person back into the community of believers.[/quote]


he stresses that there are unforgiven people. reitierating my point about the ocndemned being unforgiven, per orhtodox mentality.
[quote]Matthew points out that there blaphemy of the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin (12:31-32).[/quote]

Edited February 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

yeah this has been a productive sitting for me, reading other people's ideas.
for the record, now i'm starting to think forgiveness isnt appropriate (with all the qualifiers i've said earlier

but, im still waiting to see what else i can find and to think it over

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]QUOTE
God does not require you to forgive every injustice that is done to you.
Tom, can you expound on this please?

[quote]I find no record of Jesus giving forgiveness to Judas. God did not forgive Agrippa. David did not forgive Goliath. There are several other examples of people who sinned and were not forgiven. Does anyone really think that God holds us to a higher standard than He holds Himself?[/quote]

Hmm food for thought, thank you. [/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's actually getting hard for me to find authoritative sources, that say to forgive everyone no matter what.
if i want to find that, i have to go to unauthoritative sources, joe blow off the street's knee jerk response. (not that there's no one of repute who thinks contra the 'forgive only if they repent'

[quote]As for Lynn's statement that Jesus said we are to forgive our enemies, we must remember that forgiveness is always conditioned upon repentance. Judges do not grant clemancy to the guilty, but may show mercy to the truly repentant. God is not obligated to forgive the unrepentant sinner. What Jesus said was that we are required to love (which, by the way is an action, not a feeling) our enemies, as God has love us. Once an enemy seeks forgiveness, they are not longer our enemy.[/quote]
[url="http://www.virtualchurch.org/2006/02/christians-and-death-penalty-are-we.html"]http://www.virtualchurch.org/2006/02/chris...lty-are-we.html[/url]

[dairygirl4u2c]

interesting point, reiterating my point about forgivnes implying repentence, and being the orthodox standard, from the catholic encyclopedia:

"Until the time of the Reformation no theologian ever thought of denying the necessity of contrition for the forgiveness of sin. But with the coming of Luther and his doctrine of justification by faith alone the absolute necessity of contrition was excluded as by a natural consequence."
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm[/url]

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's just way too hard for me to find authoritative sources that say i have to forgive them.
my gut was steering me the other way, but as i said, i think that was mostly 'better safe than sorry' fear.
truthiness, gut talk etc, does not mean a whole lot. even if it's coming my own.
i still would say 'if god forgives you i do' and let it be up to God. but, i'm pretty sure there's going to be no postive forgiveness unless they are sorry. after all, if God forgave them, then on my conditional, i also forgave them.

i'd have to challenge people ot find authoritative sources that say otherwise. cause i genuinely can't find any.
if i can't find any, that seems pretty telling.

i could seriously go on citing authoritaive source, after authoritative source, that say we shold not forgive the unrepentent. books ,theologians, pastors etc.
(i have to to random blogs like this one to find anything else

i'd have to say 'screw orthodox thought' and jump on new age thought, to think otherwise.
which, again, i've still not ruled out completely.

Edited February 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

yeah this thread has been an eye opener

[dairygirl4u2c]

also, per the 'our father'. i like to rip on protestants a lot, cause they tend to say 'forgive us our trespasses' when they pray to God, yet they claim they are already forgiven. if you're already forgiven, you don't need to ask fori t, it'd be more like 'thank you for forgiving me' etc. the best responses i get to this issue is, 'it's good form' etc etc, clearly brushing aside the issue.

so, if you see repentence and asking for forgivingness a precondition to forgiveness, then it's not at all twisting anything to say that forgive in the our father implies repentence.

applying this to forgiving the unrepentent, well, you see where this is giong.

and this reconciles well with the catholic encyclopedia that says this is the traditional understanding of forgiveness etc.

it might seem odd to say 'i don't forgive you', given secular culture morality. but, if one remembers that you still 'love your enemy and pray for them' as jesus said, and perhaps 'if God forgives you, then i do' as i say, then it's not to bad.

[cmotherofpirl]

Its judgemental [ in my opinion] to decide if a person has repented "enough" for me to forgive them. I don't see God asking me anywhere to make those kind of judgements, in fact, we are particularly cautioned against judging someone's heart. I do see very plainly Scripture saying that my sins will not be forgiven if I do not forgive others. So the idea that only those people in my life that I have forgive are those who are sorry for it hurting me in some way is repugnant.
I see nothing christ-like about it.

[Winchester]

Just because I've forgiven someone doesn't mean that there are not consequences for their actions. Loss of trust and friendship are not imcompatible with forgiveness. We Catholics believe in purgation, in spite of sins being forgiven. If you can pray for your enemy to go to Heaven, you have essentially forgiven him. It doesn't mean you have to eat dinner with him.

[dairygirl4u2c]

an important distinction i always think of when talking about 'judging'.
one is saying 'that man is sinning, at least looks like it'. and the other is 'that man is going to hell, is culpable, is bad, etc'
the first one, christias are called to do, to call people out. the second one, is not something we are to do.
i usually use that distinction when talking about calling people out v. 'judging them'. as folks always seem to jump too soon to say 'judge not lest ye be judge' etc etc, taking it too far.

i think it could extend to this situation as well. you're not judging them per se, you're characterizing their stuation.

but with that said, i too am uncomfortable doing the 'don't forgive', without the 'if God forgives you, i do'. and i don't see those people who say don't forgiven, address the issue of 'what if they are forgiven by God, or are ignorant, etc' yet you still don't forgive them.

while i do have many people on the side of 'don't forgive', i could see poking holes in their argumentsin in that regard, and without the ideas i've put forth, would probably not agree with their stance.

Edited February 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

plus there's always room for 'he thinks he's not sinning, or wrong, and his position is plausible, so i will forgive him'.
what the people i quote and i am getting at, as i said in the beginning post, that all including the offender knows what he did is wrong.
if all knows, then most of the contra 'don't forgive' arguments, don't stick as well. eg, 'we don't know if he's done wrong' meets 'my hypothetical assumes that it's obvious and known to all'
of course, ofgen, making that call, does take often a judgment call by the person observing thesituation as to whether that's the case, and all those other qualifications i said earlier, and everyone's concern here is more warranted.

Edited February 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c