Forgiving The Unrepentent

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1788724' date='Feb 22 2009, 09:35 PM']i get the sense you just automatically accept without much basis the conventional wisdom that you're suppose to forgive everyone. i'm not trying to be mean, i'm just being direct. (maybe i shouldn't be so direct, as it's inflammatory i dunno. anyways.

but, i suppose 'treat him like a heathen' simply means ignore him. it's possible you could ignore them etc, while at the same time forgiving them though.[/quote]

I don't see it as "conventional", I see it as scriptural. Forgive us our trespasses is quite plain. Early christians set themselves apart from non-christians.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i mean 'forgive us our trespasses' is a pretty strong proof text, i concede.
but, things are not always so obvious.
if you assume what might've been automatically understood by those words etc, that sorta thing.
i can't take that verse alone as a basis without more.

so again, do you think they were forgiven? ie, the lost brothers who were treated like heathens?
do you think the reasoning behind 'forgive the unrepentent' goes against orthodox premises as i've illustrated, and if not why not?

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

plus, maybe i shouldn't brush aside the 'forgive em anyway' line of thinking.

the controvery that exists today, which i think does in fact exist as a reasonable issue, could plausibly have always existed. i'm not expert, that's for sure.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1788759' date='Feb 22 2009, 10:07 PM']i mean 'forgive us our trespasses' is a pretty strong proof text, i concede.
but, things are not always so obvious.
if you assume what might've been automatically understood by those words etc, that sorta thing.
i can't take that verse alone as a basis without more.

so again, do you think they were forgiven? ie, the lost brothers who were treated like heathens?
do you think the reasoning behind 'forgive the unrepentent' goes against orthodox premises as i've illustrated, and if not why not?[/quote]
Yes I think they were forgiven.
The Church has always taught this forgiveness.
Pope St. Leo I the Great -Reigned 440-61.

"But because, as it is written, in many things we all stumble James 3:2, let the feeling of mercy be first aroused and the faults of others against us be forgotten; that we may not violate by any love of revenge that most holy compact, to which we bind ourselves in the Lord's prayer, and when we say forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors, let us not be hard in forgiving, because we must be possessed either with the desire for revenge, or with the leniency of gentleness, and for man, who is ever exposed to the dangers of temptations, it is more to be desired that his own faults should not need punishment than that he should get the faults of others punished. And what is more suitable to the Christian faith than that not only in the Church, but also in all men's homes, there should be forgiveness of sins? Let threats be laid aside; let bonds be loosed, for he who will not loose them will bind himself with them much more disastrously. For whatsoever one man resolves upon against another, he decrees against himself by his own terms. Whereas blessed are the merciful, for God shall have mercy on them : and He is just and kind in His judgments, allowing some to be in the power of others to this end, that under fair government may be preserved both the profitableness of discipline and the kindliness of clemency, and that no one should dare to refuse that pardon to another's shortcomings, which he wishes to receive for his own."

[Lilllabettt]

I am especially thinking of Jesus praying "forgive them, they know not what they do." I feel certain that Jesus forgave the people who crucified Him, as He hung on the cross, even as they jeered Him, cast lots for His clothes, and were completely unrepentant. They did not know they were killing the Son of God ... but maybe they knew they were killing an innocent man?

So let us say that God forgives us for the sins we commit not knowing what we do. Since we are forbidden from judging our neighbor, can we ever say that we are sure they know what they are doing? We might say "well, they ought to have known" ... (shouldn't the Roman soldiers have known it was a crime against God to treat any human being with such cruelty) ... but I shudder to think of my judgment, if God says to me "you should have known."

Whether or not forgiving the people we "judge" to be unrepentant is a "requirement" ... it is better to be liberal in the forgiveness department. God will only forgive us as we have forgiven others .. and any conditions we use for others will be applied to us ...

Edited February 23, 2009 by Lilllabettt

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't see where the pope said you should forgive the unrepentent.
it just says forgive graciously (dioesn't necessarly mean forgive unrepentent), don't engage in revenge (not forgiving isn't revenge), and know that what you do God will do to you (as Jesus said). i don't see where the pope said you should forgive the unrepentent.

you might argue, 'forgive the unrepentent that way God will forgive your unrepentent sins'. that's a formidable thought. (not that it's in the pope's writing or anything, unless you imply it) perhaps we're all unrepentenet to some degree though, and yet forgiven in the end, so we should forgive. but, theoretically, christians are repentent and so we wouldn't have to worry.

also he talks about wanting revenge going hand in hand with not being merciful.
no mercy doesn't necessarily mean, not forgirving.
i have wondered whether it's possible to not forgive, and yet not seek revenge at least in one's heart. seeking revenge or wanting it, in terms of an eye for an eye and not in terms of justice per courts etc, seems to be wrong to me.
if it's nt possible to separate them, forgiveness and revenge, then perhaps not forgiving is not the right way to go about it.
but, if you not so much 'don't forgive' in the the sense of holding grudges etc, but in the sense of 'not giving forgiveness but still letting go of anger etc' then it's more neutral per revenge etc.

as i mentioned earlier (kinda wishy washy way) i think this next paragraph takes care of the 'they know not what they do' stuff, which one cannot judge very well themself, and which God might have used as the standard anyway:
i think whatever is the case, if you take my position (which i second guess considering we're all unrepentent to a degree), ya still got to suspend judgment to a degree. it's objective whether God has forgiven or not. how could you not forgive when God has forgiven?
at least if you put it on suspension it's like 'i'm not forgiving you, but i'm not going out of my ways to hold grudges etc, i'm sort of neutral. if God forgives you, i do'. i think this neutral mentality is very much in line with the sentiments associated with 'treat him like a heathen'. just how it 'feels', the associations seem there.

yeah i'm not sure, given we're all unrepentent to a degree.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think i'm changing my position (which might change given i'm thinkin this through still

"perhaps we're all unrepentenet to some degree though, and yet forgiven in the end, so we should forgive."

it's hard to deny we're all unrepentent to some degree, yet we know we're forgiven in the end. so what does 'to some degree' mean?
on the one hand, i am at least theoretically sorry for all my sins. in that sense, i'm repentent. on the other hand, as with most people, i still sin. (i'm of the mentality, that even venial sins, if you have no overall repentence to them, are mortal- but if you have specific hesitation/unwillingness to stop, as is common with the frail human condition, then you couuld still be forgiven)

so, given that general repentence i at least have on a specific sin, which i don't think the unrepentent person i speak of necessarily has (we'd have to suspend judgment as i mentioned earlier, cause we never really know etc), i could justify my position still.

the problem, though, is that i don't know if i'm thorough enough theoretically repentent etc. this is a fuzzy concept, even though i think it's the principle that guides this stuff. so, if there's uncertainty, isn't it better to forgive?
you can still treat them as a heathen, and demand satisfaction, etc.

a large degree of this is a play on words too. 'forgive them' is to 'reconciliation' (as mentioned in the first post of this thread by the person who is not me), as 'suspend judgment, no grudes' is to 'forgiveness'.
but, there is something inherent in 'not forgiving' that cannot be avoided.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[cmotherofpirl]

Scripture makes it very plain we are to forgive someone who has wronged us. It doesn't say anywhere they they must repent or be sorry first.I think Matthew makes it very plain:

6:14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.


Again in Matthew chapter 18
Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents.

25 And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt.

28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest.

29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt.

31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me:

33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee?

34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.

35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.


Mark in chapter 11 says the same thing as does Luke 6 which puts it more bluntly
But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest; for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

38 Give, and it shall be given to you: good measure and pressed down and shaken together and running over shall they give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you shall mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.

[dairygirl4u2c]

even the bible passages you cite, dont say you have to forgive the unrepentent.

-in fact, the one you cite doesn't apply as it says that the person was repentent "26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. "
-the others merely say if ya don't forgive then God won't. that could easily mean if ya don't forgive the repentent, then God won't.
-the one about 'what you do, God does to you', doesn't necessarily detract from the position, cause christians are repentent, but the person is not- so it doesn't matter if God uses the standard, cause you'd be safe if he does. (arguably, anyway-- this is the argument that did change my position)
i don't see how you claim it's 'clear' when the passage themselves do not give much speficificity. and the only specificity that ever is shown is when they repent, or are questionable things like 'treat him like a heathen'
i think saying it's 'clear' when it's not, does more harm to your (our) argument than anything.
it's like those fundamentalists who list these crazy ideas of theirs and cite these random passages that might or might not validate their stance.

those bible passage are good to cite though.
but, if the bible isn't clear, which i don't think it is, then i say a good old fashioned argument is warranted.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

plus, so many who you would not forgive would in fact have 'general repentence but not on that specific sin'. so, if ya want God to forgive your specific sins that you have general repentence for, you have to forgive their specific sin that they have general repentence for.
if they have general repentence, i mean, if you know it.
this is a common stituation, 'general repentence'
but if you're not sure? maybe my old position is better.

i dunno, a lot of this is fuzzy.
the only reason i seem to be wanting to forgive is cause it's better safe than sorry.i'm not sure it's really a good argument im basing anything on.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1788988' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:16 AM']even the bible passages you cite, dont say you have to forgive the unrepentent.[/quote]

Dairy, the scriptures are NOT differentiating between repentant and unrepentant - it applies to everyone. If someone wrongs you - you forgive them. Period.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think i might agree with ya.
but there's plenty of good christians who disagree though:
[url="http://theologica.blogspot.com/2005/03/should-we-forgive-unrepentant_22.html"]http://theologica.blogspot.com/2005/03/sho...pentant_22.html[/url]
or the fellow who posted earlier.

'forgive' could easily imply 'when they repent'
it's not at all stretching anything. if you read it like that, then it's not so clear.

i still don't know what to make of the earlier stuff i posted about orhtodox understanding. ie, condemned are unforgiven is the premise. yet we're saying, 'you're forgiven until you die, then you're unforgiven, unless you repent', which just seems loopy.
'you're forgiven if you repent' doesn't seem so loopy, and fits well with orthodox mentalities.

i'll have to pray about it more.
no quick decisions.
i'm leaning with forgiven everyone.

Edited February 24, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

this evangelical even says it's unbiblcal and wrong to forgive them:
[url="http://www.evangelicalfellowship.ca/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=5040"]http://www.evangelicalfellowship.ca/NetCom...e.aspx?pid=5040[/url]

[dairygirl4u2c]

another fellow, highlighting the 'orthodox' position:

[quote]God has instituted civil authorities and the judicial system to punish those who do wrong for this very reason. This is supported by the doctrinal position of the atonement from the angle of penal substitution, which emphasises the fact that there could be no forgiveness without restitution. As the Bible states, "There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood" (Hebrews 9:22).

The crucifixion was a capital punishment designed to satisfy the demands of justice on behalf of those who have transgressed God's law, but would come to faith in Jesus Christ and find forgiveness in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If God unilaterally absolved sinners without a condition of repentance, there would be no need for the cross, repentance, or faith... all of which are necessary for salvation. The implication would be pluralism.

Rev. Chris Curry pastors the Living Waters Christian Assembly, Ottawa, Ontario.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

this pastor is going along with similiar thinking as i was, "leave it to God" and "a whole bunch of other nuanced approaches to the issues"

[quote]The only way I’m able to forgive the unrepentant offender is the way David did: leave it to God. I can’t excuse the behavior, but I can relinquish my claim to vengeance on the one who has hurt me.[/quote]
[url="http://samshaw.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/forgiving-the-unrepentant/"]http://samshaw.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/fo...he-unrepentant/[/url]