Forgiving The Unrepentent

[dairygirl4u2c]

what is a christian's obligation to those who wrong them but do not seek forgiveness, when it's understood by all that the christian was the one wronged?

is it merely a nice thing to do to forgive them but not required?
does it in fact offend justice and so wrong to forgive them?
is it required in the same sense as forgiving someone who seeks forgiveness?

(i ask, cause i see this issue emerge a lot. there's no clear answers within christianity, it seems to me anyway, on this simple, fundamental question.
maybe God wants us to work through these issues, and it's not suppose to be clear, i don't know. )then again, 'forgive us our trespasses' could be argued to be pretty clear, though i'm not sure that's what was intended.)

[dairygirl4u2c]

you got those verses that say "go tell him his fault, then tell the church etc, then if he doesn't listen, treat him as a heathen, ignore him."
that sure doesn't sound like 'forgiveness' to me.

that seems pretty clear too, so, and more on point.

Edited February 22, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Lilllabettt]

I wondered about this too.

I thought, if I commit a terrible sin, and am unrepentent, then when I die, God does not just forgive me and let me into Heaven. So why should we be required to forgive someone who doesn't ask for it, if not even God forgives someone who doesn't ask for it.

But it occurred to me that God does forgive everyone. But its up to the other person to accept His forgiveness. The only reason unrepentant people would go to Hell is not because forgiveness hasn't happened, but because reconciliation hasn't happened. They don't accept the forgiveness that was offered them.

Forgiveness is unilateral .. one person can do it, on there own. Reconciliation takes two.

[dairygirl4u2c]

interesting convo. i could see that transpiring here.

"A: Golden Boy already hit me with the snide remark, "And you call yourself a Christian?" I answered him, "Yes, I do, and God doesn't require anyone to put up with the way she has treated me.

B: I would avoid old golden boy - using the Christian line to keep you in check is positively evil. Try reading Peck's Children of the Lie - yes - there is evil in the world, and sometimes it looks just like a sweet little old lady!!!!!!!"

[dairygirl4u2c]

Jesus said 'forgive them father for they know not what they do'.
how do we tell whether someone knows not what they do? sometimes we might be able to have a good guess, but we often cannot know, and effectively or at least theoretically can never know.
perhaps a good stance is 'if God forgives them, then i forgiven them', and to live with that limbo in thought on the issue. there's no positive forgiveness by you, it's up to God.

i'd always think you have the choice to fogive anyone, even those who don't deserve it. but, i could on this point, see saying it's in fact the wrong thing to do, per justice, per that bible verse above, etc, or even that 'forgiving those who are not sorry is a contradiction in terms' if you define the terms in a way to make it a contradiction i mean and follow that line of thinking.

Edited February 22, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

one analysis referring to joseph in the OT

[quote]What follows is a series of more tests of their characters which cut closer and deeper each time. Joseph takes them back over the very same ground of years earlier to see what was in their hearts. I will not go into it here because the story is long and detailed. Read it for yourself today.

What I want to draw your attention to is how Joseph's close and almost (seemingly) cruel testing of his brother's level of repentance for their vile acts against him is a righteous act on Joseph's part. There is no Biblical condemnation of his need to see whether or not these people were safe for him to be around and safe for him to grant favors to. No superficial glossing over of the past was done. No demand for a few words of apology as if that would prove anything at all about their characters. It was in Joseph's heart to protect and nurture his family as was proven by the grand favors given after he eventually revealed himself to his brethren. But he was not going to grant these favors on evil and unrepentant men. He must first prove them. Are they worthy of mercy because their repentance runs deep and true? Or must he remain anonymous to them and resist his desire to preserve them and hold them close? His brothers' reactions to the tests would give Joseph the information he needed in order to proceed. Notice that the tests did not depend on Joseph's brothers' words. They were judged on their actions. Repentance can never be determined on the weight of naked words alone.[/quote]

Edited February 22, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

reading various internet site, a popular line is 'forgive the unrepentant, cause it's releases your frustrations etc'. this does seem to be foregiveness so much as moving on and not letting it run your life etc. more forget though not completely, less forgive.

it also seems people, christians/secularists, who like to do a lot of moral posturing/grandstanding, acting as if forgiving is the only acceptable answer. when the conventional wisdom of secular culture coincides with christian understandings, i tend to be skeptical.
i suppose you can see where my decision is going on this.

before, i'd just go where the winds blew. i'd read or hear 'forgiveness is good' and think that. then i'd read 'shake the dust off your boots' type stuff, and think that. i hadn't thought much about it before, and my opinion is solidifying (though always willing to change if needed), that's why i'm asking

Edited February 22, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

http://narcissists-smell of elderberries.blogspot.com/searc...bel/Forgiveness

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1788188' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:13 PM']what is a christian's obligation to those who wrong them but do not seek forgiveness, when it's understood by all that the christian was the one wronged?

is it merely a nice thing to do to forgive them but not required?
does it in fact offend justice and so wrong to forgive them?
is it required in the same sense as forgiving someone who seeks forgiveness?

(i ask, cause i see this issue emerge a lot. there's no clear answers within christianity, it seems to me anyway, on this simple, fundamental question.
maybe God wants us to work through these issues, and it's not suppose to be clear, i don't know. )then again, 'forgive us our trespasses' could be argued to be pretty clear, though i'm not sure that's what was intended.)[/quote]

"Forgives us our trespasses as we forgive those" is very clear. We are asked to forgive as God forgives. The other person doesn't have to repent, offer apologies, or acknowledge the wrongdoing. etc. The point is not what the other person does, its what we do as a response. It is not minimizing the consequences of their action on us, nor is it pretending those consequences were not important, or that they may have to suffer consequences as a result of their action. It doesn't involve forgetting or not taking actions to protect ourselves in the future. Forgiveness means getting to the point that I can say I forgive this or that, and letting go of the emotions involved.

[dairygirl4u2c]

do you think the persons who follow the bible, and treat the unrepentent sinner as a heathen, has forgiven that person?

do you think joseph had forgiven those people? (maybe he had, but was just wanting to see how much he could trust them etc, this example is less clear)

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1788686' date='Feb 22 2009, 08:59 PM']do you think the persons who follow the bible, and treat the unrepentent sinner as a heathen, has forgiven that person?

do you think joseph had forgiven those people? (maybe he had, but was just wanting to see how much he could trust them etc, this example is less clear)[/quote]

What do you mean by heathen? With the exception of the Westboro people, most bible-believing people I have met strive to treat all people very decently.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]But it occurred to me that God does forgive everyone. But its up to the other person to accept His forgiveness. The only reason unrepentant people would go to Hell is not because forgiveness hasn't happened, but because reconciliation hasn't happened. They don't accept the forgiveness that was offered them.

Forgiveness is unilateral .. one person can do it, on there own. Reconciliation takes two.[/quote]

i'm trying to figure out how i might be different than this mindset.
even if you withheld forgiveness, there could always be an offer of forgiveness (as i think a christian would be obligated to give once requested.

'you're forgiven, but if you don't accept it in this life, then you're no longer forgiven':
if you accept the orthodox premise that the condemned are unforgiven, as is orthodox, then this is what the 'forgive em' crowd would be forced to conclude. i see that as sorta screwy thinking, maybe it's not so self evident and this is where discussion is fruitful.

so if you twist the orthodox standard to something new, it'd read more like 'you're forgiven after death too but you're the one who has turned away so that's why you're in hell'. --- you can see why even an orthodox christian would be weary of the 'forgive em' crowd, cause it's starting to sound new agey etc. (how many even cathoclics say the church is becoming to new agey

'forgive em' crowd thinking lines are certainly popular within secular christianity etc.
i'm not sure it's the way orthodox christianity or the bible treats the matter though.
(i thik evangelicals would say they are not automatically forgiven, but have to accept it first-- just noting by securlar christian i don't mean evangelicals)

if you go with 'don't forgive em' lines 'if you accept the offer, you're forgiven', then it reconciles well with the notion that the condemned are unforgiven, tehre's no leaps or jumps in the process.

on the other hand, i'm fairly new agey in my beliefs, actually a little of both, so i shouldn't just assume the orthodox premises are correct. perhaps mankind is progressing. yeah, this all sorta ties into those sorta issues.
now, i know i'm talking about God's forgiveness. but, the reason is practical, ie by figuring out his, we can figure out ours, and how it's to be done. at the very least i'd think 'whatever god wants, is what is the case', but i'm still inquiering, cause if we have a postive duty to forgive or not forgive, then the middleground is no place to try to hide from it all.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1788706' date='Feb 22 2009, 09:23 PM']What do you mean by heathen? With the exception of the Westboro people, most bible-believing people I have met strive to treat all people very decently.[/quote]

Matthew 18:
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, [b]let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. [/b]

i suppose 'treat him like a heathen' simply means ignore him. it's possible you could ignore them etc, while at the same time forgiving them though.
and, i looked up heathen, and it simply means essentially how the jews treated nonjews, ie looked down etc sorta words that even we associate with the word. so, again, it's possible that you'd forgiven that person who you'r etreating like a heathen, but it doesn't seem on its face obvious.
plus he says 'thou hast gained a brother' which almost means, you've lost the brother, if they don't repent. again, it's possible to forgive the brother who you've lost, but it doesn't seem on its face obvious.

i get the sense you just automatically accept without much basis the conventional wisdom that you're suppose to forgive everyone. (i'm not trying to be mean, i'm just being direct -- maybe i shouldn't be so direct, as it's inflammatory i dunno. anyways.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Norseman82]

The Church expects us to be repentant and have [i]metanoia[/i] (change of heart) in order for us to receive absolution in the sacrament of Penance,. As far as I'm concerned, if I exepct someone to show repentance before I forgive them, I'm only expecting of others what the Church expects of me.

[dairygirl4u2c]

thanks for the input norseman.
i think you're illustrating the orthodox line of thinking.
(plus it's always nice to have someone at my back.

Edited February 23, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c