The Catholic Faith

[Brother Adam]

I wanted to add:

The more Teresa and I talk, the more I find that there is a deep desire in both of us, buried under mounds of Protestant teaching, to be Catholic. There just seems to be something [i]right[/i] about one united faith and one church and an authority that can teach us without us having to worry about error.

I believe it is just going to take a lot of praying and reading and understanding before we can feel peace about this. I appreciate your wilingness to read and respond. This one on one is helping alot.

[phatcatholic]

[quote]phatcatholic, I've downloaded the entire Catholic Answers library and printed half of it to put it in a binder for quick reference [/quote]
sorry about that bro

[quote]As I sit here and think about everything you said, about hardness of heart and missing mass on sunday being mortal (which is really odd cause the catachism says you only have to attend once a year, on Easter if possible). I still remember times in my own life where I have not gone to church, but it hasn't been because I'm "giving the finger to God". It has nothing to do with wanting to disobey God at all. [/quote]
i would like to say some final comments here before we move on to the next question. first off, instead of the specific example of our sunday obligation, i was applying the idea of "hardness of heart" to the more general attitude of resistance to church authority and to the propensity to say, "well, if only i could do ____."

as for how this applies to church on sunday, i think that hardness of heart can exist w/o a deliberate objection to God's will (or necessarily "giving the finger to God"). hesitancy, ill-will, or a certain grumbling underneath one's breath can also signify such a "hardness," even if in the end the person does what they are supposed to do. in my mind, what is fundamental here is not necessarily rejection, but resistance. does that make sense?

for more info on the sinfulness of neglecting our sunday obligation, please see the following articles:
[b]--[url="http://cuf.org/member/missingmassmortalsin.pdf"]Is Missing Sunday Mass a Mortal Sin?[/url]
--[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0111.html"]Is Missing Mass a Mortal Sin?[/url]
--[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/parenting/pa0076.html"]8 Reasons to Go to Mass[/url]
--[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0648.html"]Missing Mass for No Reason[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/m930529c.html"]Mass Obligation[/url]
--[url="http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19990101/SCRMNTL/obligation.htm"]Is It a Sin to Miss Mass?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/OBLIMASS.htm"]Obligation to Attend Mass on Sundays[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/kc61-1.html"]Precepts of the Church: Sundays and Holy Days[/url]
--[url="http://wordbytes.org/SpirGrowth/church.htm"]What's the Big Deal about Going to Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19980301/SCRMNTL/WHEN_MASS.HTM"]When MUST You Get to Mass?[/url][/b]

[quote]Next question:

If one were to say "faith is being obedient to the will of God", would you then agree if the person says "we are saved by faith alone"?

It seems to me, that for the Catholic, one is initially saved by participating in baptism, a work of God, not of man. And this baptism is in essance, not a "work" or "fruit", but of faith only does one come forward to be baptized.[/quote]
actually, i couldn't say it any better then your signature does. we are saved by grace through faith. this is the catholic teaching. so, even if we do both agree that faith is obedient, we must also acknowledge the role of grace. when people say "sola fide," they may be implicitly ackowledging the role of grace, but then again one can never assume what people mean by this phrase. there is also the connotation of OSAS that is usually attached to this theory as well......which of course a catholic would have to reject.

let me reiterate the distinctions that must be made in order for a catholic to say "we are saved by faith alone."
[b]1. [/b]by the word "saved" we mean "eternal life in heaven," not "justification of the spirit," which catholics believe we can lose.
[b]2. [/b]this faith is an obedient faith. it is inseperable from good works.
[b]3. [/b]grace is the initial catalyst as well as the motivation for this obedient faith.
[b]4. [/b]as such, this obedient faith only "saves" if it is maintained by grace and free will until the very end.

as for baptism, actual grace lights the spark of faith that compels one to receive baptism, in which sanctifying grace is recieved that justifies the spirit. the [b][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp"]article about grace[/url][/b] from Catholic Answers (which u already have ) will be helpful as well.

[quote]It seems for the Catholic then, throughout life, one is so much "working to earn their salvation" like in the OT, but working out their salvation in the fruits that God enables us to do. A Catholic isn't doing good works because they think their good works is what gets them into heaven, but that good works is part of faith- being obedient to God's will.

Make any sense?[/quote]
yes, this is correct. you seem to have the right idea.

[quote]The more Teresa and I talk, the more I find that there is a deep desire in both of us, buried under mounds of Protestant teaching, to be Catholic. There just seems to be something right about one united faith and one church and an authority that can teach us without us having to worry about error.

I believe it is just going to take a lot of praying and reading and understanding before we can feel peace about this. I appreciate your wilingness to read and respond. This one on one is helping alot. [/quote]
it warms my heart to know that you are open to my faith, and as such, i can't help but do everything in my power to nurture that "deep desire" within you. i am committed to doing whatever it takes to help you along this journey, trusting that, thru faith and prayer, God will guide you where you need to go.

i hope this helps............pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited March 24, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

brrooooohhhhh.....brrohh....brohh.....brohh (echo effect)

you didn't forget about me did u?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Give us Tiiiimmmee iiimmme mmme eeee

[phatcatholic]

i apologize ..............take all the time you need

[Brother Adam]

Why should we become Catholic?

[phatcatholic]

adam,

just a quick note to let you know that i haven't forgotten about you. i won't be able to respond over the weekend b/c i'll be spending time w/ my family and working on homework. but, i hope to answer your question early in the week when i return to school (sunday, monday, or tuesday).

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 25 2004, 08:56 PM'] Why should we become Catholic? [/quote]
bro adam,

i have really been struggling with how to respond to this question, not because the answers are not abundant, but because it is hard to articulate into words the love i have for Jesus Christ and His Church. plus, i don't want this to just be a list of the usual stereotypical responses. i want this to come from my heart; i feel like you will appreciate that the most. i guess the best way for me to do that is to just tell you what the Catholic Church means to me. you can glean from that the reasons to be Catholic.

to me, the catholic church means....

[b]1. [/b][b]a mother [/b]who loves me so much, that any words used to describe it are incomprehensably inadequate. this is a love indescribable, a love for the body of Christ, typified in the love that Mary has for THE body of Christ. notice in The Passion of the Christ, how she runs to Him, how she longs to take all of his pain away. she just loves Him so much. we are the child in the flashback, we are the Body of Christ, who stumble and fall. yet we have a mother who is always there, who will wipe away our tears and set us back upon the path to righteousness.

[b]2. [/b][b]a Blessed Mother[/b], a Mother of perfect piety and purity, a Mother who looks upon us, lowly and broken in this valley of tears, and brings our heartfelt cries to the Lord. She is the Mother to the motherless, to the abandoned, to the homeless, to desperate and the heartbroken. She is there, caring for us, unceasing in her love and affection. Oh Blessed Mother and Immaculate Queen of Heaven, pray for us!!

[b]3. a father[/b], a priest, my guardian, my shephard, who loves me as his son. a man who has given himself to the Lord to be an instrument of forgivness and sacrifice. "bless me father, for i have sinned." humbled and humiliated i come before him. yet he is not rebuking, not horrified, not aggravated or apathetic. he is loving, understanding, forgiving. it has made his day that i have come to him, and sought that the Holy Father should work through him in reconciling me to Himself. before i leave the confessional, and walk back into the harsh, cruel world he hugs me and assures me that he is always there for me, just as our Holy Father in heaven is forever at our side.

[b]4. grace unabounding[/b], grace that pours forth like water, that cleanses us and unites us to Christ Jesus. [b]grace from baptism[/b], which wipes away all impurities, that seals us w/ the indelible mark of the Holy Spirit and makes us a new creation, a child of God, a member of His Holy Family.

[b]grace from confession[/b], the Lords merciful forgiveness that lifts every burden, that reconciles us w/ God and man, grace available to every wicked man who ever walked this Earth.

[b]grace from the Real Presence [/b]of Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. grace that fills us, so that we hunger and thirst no more. grace that unites us to the one sacrifice for all mankind, for every generation, until the end of time.

[b]grace from confirmation[/b], grace that fits us w/ the armor of God, with which we are protected for the good fight. together w/ the mighty archangels we wage the war against evil and set ourselves apart as sons and daughter of God, and warriors for Christ.

[b]grace from matrimony[/b], grace through which two become one flesh and share in God's role as Creator and Sustainer of Life, grace through which two people call to mind the perfect love that exists between the persons of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, grace through which man and woman work to aid and protect and guide each other to eternal bliss in heaven.

[b]grace from Holy Orders[/b], in which men, who are called to be set apart for the Lord and servants of His Church, are given power and authority by the Holy Spirit to stand in the person of Christ, to appropriate His unending blessings to His children, to celebrate the perfect Sacrifice of the Mass, to live a life singularly devoted to the work of God on this Earth.

[b]grace from the Anointing of the Sick[/b], grace that strengthens us in our final hours, when we are inundated with fear and despair, grace that comforts us when we need it the most, grace that prepares our souls to be with God, and heals ever infirmity if it is His Perfect Will.

[b]grace, everywhere and all around me[/b], grace to cleans me, grace to forgive me, grace to feed me, grace to arm and protect me, grace to love me, grace to make me a man set apart, grace to strengthen me until my final breath, grace that pushes me, guides me, points me in the right direction. without it i would be lost. i would be dead.

[b]5. truth[/b], perfect and unadulterated. the spirit of truth that casts our fear, protected by the Holy Spirit and the Real Presence of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. truth incorruptable, impervious to the scandal and the imperfection of men. truth, that sure guide and only way towards perfection in Christ Jesus. truth that never contradicts itself, truth that never lies, truth set on a pedastle and of which there is only one.

[b]6. One body[/b], united in One profession of faith, in One sacrifice of the Holy Mass, in perfect Communion, in One shepherd on Earth, One Vicar of Christ, One Rock, One sure foundation, One Church, One Body of Christ, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit that is through all and in all.

[b]7. a Holy Body[/b], empowered by the Holy Spirit, filled with Grace, made Holy by the appropriation of this grace through the Seven Sacraments, glorified by the Saints, that clowd of witnesses who have come before us and show us what it is to be Holy, to glorify the Lord and his Church through every word and action. a Holy Body, a spotless lamb, a perfect sacrifice brought before the Lord.

[b]8. a Catholic Body[/b], a people everwhere, spreading the word of God and making disciples of all nations, feeding the poor, providing clothing and shelter for the homeless, nursing the sick, protecting the neglected and abused, everwhere and to everyone saying, "here you have a home." a Catholic Body, universal yet visible, hierarchical, with bishops, priests, and deacons, a body set apart from all others, a body of which the earliest christians provide witness, the only body that deserves the title "Catholic"

[b]9. an Apostolic Body[/b], sprung from the 12 apostles themselves, a body w/ a perfect line of succession, a body which continuously perpetuates the power, authority, and teaching of the first followers of Jesus, and of Jesus Christ himself. a body for which martyrs have died, and the greatest apologists and theologians in all of christianity have given witness, perfect unity with the One True Church, Christ's Church, from the VERY beginning, a claim that no other Church would dare to make or ever substantiate.

[b]10. the communion of saints[/b], those witnesses in the stands who cheer for me as i run the race, as i work out my salvation w/ fear and trembling. saints, made perfect by the saving grace of Jesus Christ, who live in the presence of the Beatific Vision, who are alive in Christ, who have fought the good fight and finished victorious, who know my trials b/c they have lived them to. saints, our holy brothers and sisters in Christ, who bring rightious prayers to the Lord on our behalf and plead that we may be showered with grace.

[b]11. resiliency[/b], the longest-lasting institution on the face of the planet, the Church that will never fall, never be defeated, never be corrupted, never be overcome, never be overcome by the gates of hell, by the devil and his minions, by the sinfulness of man, and every force that is brought against it. Resilient, finding redemption through suffering, growth in times of scandal, light where there is darkness, healing where there is pain, lifting every burden and healing all wounds. Resilient, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic until the end of time. The Last Man Standing.

[b]12. ST. MICHAEL[/b], captain bad-ass, mr. who's-your-daddy, mr. "WHO-IS-LIKE-CHRIST!?!?, mr. bring it on, mr. you-cant-hold-me, mr. foot-on-your-face, mr. don't-make-me-use-my-sword, mr. get-the-hell-outta-here, mr. the-devil-aint-shinobi, the Prince of Heavenly Host, our defender in battle, our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil, the ultimate warror, the soldier of Christ, our bodyguard from temptation and sin, the protector of the Church and enemy of the Devil. st. michael, the archangel, pray for us!!

[b]13. only the Catholic Church can and does make such lofty claims[/b]. its the only Church that claims to be the One Church of Christ--and can prove it. its the only Church that is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic--and can prove it. its the only Church that can say it came BEFORE the Bible--and can prove it. its the only Church that claims to be infallible in matters of doctrine and morals--and can prove it. its the only Church that claims direct succession from the Apostles and Jesus Christ--and can prove it. its the only Church that gives Her believers SEVEN SURE WAYS to receive the grace of Jesus Christ--and can prove it. its the only Church that shows the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ that honor and reverence that she rightly deserves.

you know, as i re-read my response, i despair over how supremely inadequate it is. uggh! i think i could re-write and revise this 100 times and never be happy with it. i hope this is what you are looking for, and i am sorry if it is not. actually, a part of me fears that it will turn you away, as my zeal has done so often in the past. i am remined of my ex-girlfriend, and how my response to the same question by her actually destroyed all hope of her becoming catholic. however, i must remind myself that it is not all my fault that she has decided to reject catholicism, and it is equally prideful of me to assume that your initiation into the Church hinges upon my response here.

so, there's my answer. it is what it is.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

ps: here's some articles that articulate why other people have chosen to be Catholic:
[b]--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ107.HTM"]Conversion to Catholicism: General Observations[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ439.HTM"]Catholic Mariology, Authority, and Other Qualms of Protestants Considering Conversion[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ177.HTM"]Reasons for Leaving and Joining the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ103.HTM"]150 Reasons Why I Am Catholic[/url][/b]
--for an immense collection of conversion stories, go [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ390.HTM"][b]here[/b][/url] or [url="http://www.chnetwork.org/"][b]here[/b][/url]

Edited March 29, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

bump....................just to get us back on the first page again

take your time bro. i look forward to hearing from you.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

bump.......................cause can't nobody hold us down!

[Brother Adam]

I've been reading and thinking about it. You don't have to bump bro

Thank you. I know that came from the heart.


What don't you like about the Catholic Church or anything in it?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 31 2004, 03:14 PM'] What don't you like about the Catholic Church or anything in it? [/quote]
i would have to say that the thing i dislike the most about the Church are those within it who do not live their faith, respect their faith, or attempt to learn about their faith.

[b]LIBERAL CATHOLICS[/b]

this seems to be the most prevalent among "liberal" catholics. well, let me start out by saying that liberalism in general irritates me, let alone christian liberalism. that entire mindset is just simply not what the Church is all about!! i wish that they would see how much they degrade and wound the church w/ this agenda. here's some of the carp i hear that really makes me want to shake people:

--women should be allowed to be priests
--priests should be allowed to marry
--there's too many rules and regulations
--mass is too boring
--the church is behind the times
--i don't like mass b/c i don't feel the spirit moving there
--i don't agree w/ having some pope telling me what to believe
--abstinence before marriage is stupid. what if i love my boyfriend?
--its a woman's choice whether or not she wants to abort her baby
--rapists should be put in the electric chair so that the victim can have revenge
--i don't go to confession, its too embarrasing. i can confess to God anyway
--it doesn't really matter what church you go to, as long as u love Jesus
--the pope is too old, he needs to retire

uugghhh! i can't describe how much this stuff gets to me. open a freakin book, for the love of God! learn about your religion before you share you ridiculous, uneducated opinions w/ everyone. quit speaking against something b/c it just doesn't feel right, or b/c it messes up the nice little plans you had for your life. this big crusade for a female priesthood is utterly ignorant. i mean, how obvious does it have to be that the matter is closed? the pope could not agree w/ that even if he wanted to. THE SPIRIT WILL NOT ALLOW!

[b]LUKE-WARM CATHOLICS[/b]

ya know, its not even the ignorance that bothers me the most (although that reeeeally bothers me), its the fact that these people are a lousy example of the Church i love w/ all my heart. they DISGRACE HER w/ every word and action, and it just makes me want to draw my freakin sword. the single most important way to witness to someone is through your ACTIONS. but, what is a protestant to think when he sees the neighborhood catholic getting drunk every night, not going to mass on sunday, not praying before meals, not fasting during lent, not reading the bible, and basically walking around like a dribbling idiot? most likely, that protestant is going to think, "well, that's the Catholic Church for ya, just a big impersonal organization that doesn't teach its believers how to love Jesus and have a personal relationship w/ him."

LIVE YOUR FAITH! READ THE BIBLE! GO TO MASS!!!!!! there's so many catholics on my campus who could really care less about their faith. this troubles me immensely. i just can't stand to have these people representing my Church. i just want to be like, "go join the Jesus Seminar and get the hell outta here if you're not going to respect God's Church."

[b]DISRESPECTFUL CATHOLICS[/b]

some catholics are not just negligent, they are straight-up disrespectful!

--cussing during mass
--telling jokes and punching each other during mass
--tickling each other on the way to receive the eucharist
--giving a quick spasm-of-a-genuflection (if they genuflect or bow their head at all) before recieving the eucharist
--leaving immediately after communion
--socializing in the church after mass, instead of leaving the building w/ reverence
--dissing vatican II
--sitting on the pew instead of kneeling b/c "it hurts my back too much."
--not bothering to participate in the mass, no singing or responding or praying

i just wanna be like, "DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS!?!? this is the sacrifice of the mass! this is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ!! this is one sacrifice for all mankind!! this is the greatest, most sacred, spiritual, mystical, mysterious, awesome, glorifying, grace-filling, SPIRIT-MOVING event that you will ever witness on Earth. RESPECT OUR GOD! RESPECT OUR CHURCH!

i'm tired of apathy, relativism, liberalism, denominationalism, disunity, disrespect, ignorance, sloth, and just general disregard for the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.

THAT's what i dislike. thanks for letting me vent.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

1. Are laity encouraged to meet with clergy to discuss how they can better educate Catholics through classes, social reform, and outreach events? If I became Catholic I would be looking to serve in a fashion to help better educate Catholics what it means to be Catholic. To begin programs aimed at eliminating the millions of American Catholics who though have had years of CCD classes think things like contraception and abortion are perfectly okay. Catholics tend to get a very bad rap just because there are so many Catholics who live very worldly lives. Due to this most protestants assume that Catholics do not have a relationship with the Lord. Perhaps it even may be that many don't.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 2 2004, 01:39 PM'] 1. Are laity encouraged to meet with clergy to discuss how they can better educate Catholics through classes, social reform, and outreach events? [/quote]
the laity aren't specifically encouraged to meet w/ clergy, per se, but anyone can meet w/ a priest if they want to. priests and other religious are there for the Church. they serve the people as well as their God.

that said, catholics ARE encouraged to "better educate Catholics through classes, social reform, and outreach events." this afterall is one of the fundamental intentions of the sacrament of confirmation. through this sacrament, the faithful recieve an indelible mark of the Holy Spirit that equips and prepares them to step out into the world and defend the faith, to Catholics and non-Catholic alike. PJII and his "New Evanglization" has placed particular emphasis on this as the responsiblility of [i][b]every catholic[/b][/i]. plus, it has long been understood by the Church that orthopraxy (right practice) is just as essential as orthodoxy (right belief). both are critical aspects of our witness to this faith that we hold so dear. in the words of the Church's first pope:

--Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a [b][i]reason[/i][/b] for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your [b][i]good conduct[/i][/b] in Christ may themselves be puot to shame. ([b]1 Pet. 3:15[/b])

[quote]If I became Catholic I would be looking to serve in a fashion to help better educate Catholics what it means to be Catholic. To begin programs aimed at eliminating the millions of American Catholics who though have had years of CCD classes think things like contraception and abortion are perfectly okay.[/quote]

first, one small correction. it is my understanding that CCD is primarily for those who wish to become catholic, and usually only lasts a year or two. any "years of instruction" that a born-and-raised catholic would recieve usually come through going to catholic schools, or homeschooling.

that said, the church would encourage and applaud such efforts on your part, and there are many ways in which these goals can be achieved. you could:

--be a youth group leader
--be a young adult group leader
--lead a bible study
--lead an organized discussion on the early church fathers or sacred tradition
--be a guest speaker (like the more credentialed and established apologists)
--make your own website to defend the faith (as you are already doing)
--publish tracts that defend the faith and place them in church buildings
--teach summer programs
--be a camp counselor or participate in catholic spiritual retreats
--LIVE YOUR FAITH

all of these opportunities are available to you, and are already being utilized by thousands (millions?) of catholics everywhere.

[quote]Catholics tend to get a very bad rap just because there are so many Catholics who live very worldly lives. Due to this most protestants assume that Catholics do not have a relationship with the Lord. Perhaps it even may be that many don't.[/quote]

i agree, and it is quite shameful. it is logical to assume that anyone who lives a worldly life does not have a good relationship w/ the Lord, if they have one at all. however, it is illogical to assume that if Catholics live such a life, it is somehow the Church's fault. it is w/ this assumption that i will always take offense.

for one, how is it logical to make those who do not live according to their faith the representatives of that faith? these people don't represent the Church b/c they do not even believe or practice as the Church does. the obvious representatives of any group are the ones who live by the tenets of the group.

secondly, the Church does everything in its power to lead, educate, and guide the faithful. popes are unceasingly prolific in their expounding upon catholicism. in every mass, which in the vast majority of diocese are offered [i][b]every day[/b][/i], the faithful hear three readings from the bible as well as a homily on how these relate to the catholic life. so many tools and resources are avialable on the internet and in libraries, the majority of which is freely given and easily obtained. priests and religious themselves are walking resources of information. therefore, in my opinion, it is utterly absurd to blame the Church for the personal ignorance of its members.

finally, i think that as an outside observer, you will find whatever you are looking for. if you are looking for catholics who do not live their faith, you will find them, just as you will find similarly negligent members in other denominations. but, if you are looking for orthodox catholics you can and will find them as well. they too are quite numerous, and are intent on representing the Church as she truly is: the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

There is a spiritual war, a spiritual struggle going on in our world today. Christians Catholic and non-Catholic alike are scrambling to "win" souls for Christ and the Church. Whenever someone makes a decision to join a group all of the other groups go "Wait! and But!".

Often times much of what Protestants have to say will make a great deal of sense from both a biblical and historic viewpoint. And often times the Church will also make a great deal of sense, both biblically and historically.

Who is it that we trust? Why?