The Catholic Faith

[Brother Adam]

I would like to have a discussion about the Catholic faith with only phatcatholic if both the moderators and phatcatholic will accept to this condition.

[Jericho923]

i will pray for you guys

[phatcatholic]

bro adam,

i am honored to accept this personal invitation, and i pray that i will do my faith justice before such a great "cloud of witnesses."

moderators, do we have your permission to begin a dialogue of this nature? also, what actions will be taken if someone else replies in this thread? (i will assume that moderators are allowed to post in here while the groundwork is being laid for this dialogue)

i will surely pray over this, and i ask the pham to do so as well.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Yes. I will just wait for moderator approval.

[Aloysius]

[quote][b]IcePrincess[/b]
This idea is perfectly do-able. Once in the old phorum Don John had a thread of just him and Raven conversing--it was like 10 pages long when I stumbled upon it as a newbie and posted in it.... then a couple other people posted.... then DJ started tearing his hair out.... then Azzie came in and saved the day and deleted the posts.

Adam, if you want to start a thread like that, in the beginning post just list the few people who you want to hear from and I can delete any other posts (unless you ask otherwise).
[/quote]

i think that counts. anyone other than PhatCatholic and Bro Adam Posting here should be aware their posts can and will be deleted. hehehehe.. DELETE THIS!! oh and also delete Jericho's post. hehehe....

just start discussing bro and phat, we'll all butt out

[color=red][Edited by Ice Princess: I didn't want to start a new post and disrupt the ongoing dialogue so I'm putting my "official" stamp of approval here (I'm sure Al won't mind me sharing his post. ) If anyone posts on this thread aside from Adam and PhatCatholic I WILL delete it.][/color]

[Brother Adam]

No, don't delete your post so peeps will know not to post!

I'm working on my first post now!

[Brother Adam]

PhatCatholic,

Some of this will be matters of discipline, some will be of doctrine. The first question comes from both me and my wife. Remember, "I don't know is perfectly cool as an answer. I'll be talking a priest next monday

1) "Why would the Church risk clerial abuse agianst children? What preventative measures have been taken before this "scandel" surfaced? What measures are being taken now?"

[phatcatholic]

this is an important question, so--if u don't mind--i would like to do some research before i respond. i will get back w/ you on an answer as soon as i have compiled some data and some "official" church statements so as to ground my response w/ as much information as possible.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

also, can you clarilfy or elaborate upon your first question?

--""Why would the Church risk clerial abuse agianst children?"

i'm not completely sure what you are asking there.

thanks,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

okay.............honestly, i'm not sure if i can paraphrase the answers i have found to your questions. there is just so much information. what i can do, however, is direct you to the pertinent documents--and the pertinent sections within those documents--so that you can read this information for yourself.

note: most of these require [b][url="http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html"]Adobe Acrobat Reader[/url][/b]:

[b]--[url="http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/index.htm"]The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States: A Research Study Conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice[/url][/b] (see the [url="http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/exec.pdf"][b]Executive Summary[/b][/url])
--this article basically provides the hard data


[b]--[url="http://www.usccb.org/nrb/nrbstudy/nrbreport.pdf"]A Report on the Crisis in the Catholic Church in the United States: Prepared by the National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People[/url][/b]
--this is where you will find most of your answers. once in acrobat reader, if you display the "Thumbnails" side panel, then u can go quickly to the pertinent information. i suggest the following:
[b][color=gray]--thumbnail #4: Table of Contents
--thumbnail #36: Prior Efforts to Address the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Priests
--thumbnail #48: The Response of the Vatican to the Problem
--thumbnail #97: The Response of U.S. Church Officials to Sexual Abuse of Minors by Priests
--thumbnail #113: Secrecy and the Avoidance of Scandal
--thumbnail #145: Recommendations[/color][/b]


[b]--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/audit2003/report.htm"]Report on the Implementation of the [i]Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People[/i][/url][/b]
--this article provides data that reveals the degree to which the dioceses of the Church are in compliance w/ the charter


You may also find the following links helpful, from the website of the [b][url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/index.htm"]Office of Child and Youth Protection[/url][/b]:
[b]--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/whoweare.htm"]Who We Are[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/faqs.htm"]FAQ's[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/nrb.htm"]National Review Board[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/helpandhealing.htm"]Help and Healing[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/charter.htm"]Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/norms.htm"]Essential Norms[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/eventsnews.htm"]News and Current Events[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/history.htm"]History[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/webstudy.htm"]Studies of Abuse[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/webaudit.htm"]Diocesan/Eparchial Compliance Audits[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/websafe.htm"]Safe Environment Programs[/url][/b]

again, i apologize for my inability to paraphrase this information for you. although the sheer amount of information i have provided may seem intimidating, these documents are easy to read and i think you will be able to find the information you are looking for rather quickly.

also, where i may be of more help is in describing how the Catholic reconciles his faith w/ the current scandals in the Church, and the part he can and should play in contributing to the renewed health and vitality of the Church.

i hope this helps..........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

also, a quick note. if you are going to speak w/ a priest on monday, i would suggest speaking to the priest who is specifically assigned to deal w/ these matters. there is (or at least, there should be) a priest in such a position in every diocese. he will be able to tell you what the church has done to address these matters, as well as the exact process that is put into motion whenever someone raises a charge against a priest or religious person. i met w/ such a priest in my diocese when i had questions about this, and he was abundantly helpful.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Ok. Hrm...wow. That really answers all the questions we have. Hrm...

HEY! No fair! Who said you are allowed to be THAT thorough.

Well....next question I guess?

This is from me and is one of my biggest struggles.

Often the thought by Protestants is: "How can you relate Catholicism to anything BUT the pharisees?" It really does seem that around every corner hell awaits. For instance, it doesn't compute with me that if you miss mass on Sunday you receive an automatic ticket to hell.

To me that throws us right back to the Old Testament mosaic law, only now its the new testament law, where everything still applies. Screw up in one little way even after salvation, and its off to hell you go packing.

Maybe you can explain it in a way I understand?

[phatcatholic]

bro adam,

this is a good question, and quite similar to the one that bruce s. asked in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=9143"]another thread[/url]. as such, my response may seem somewhat similar to the one i posted there. hopefully, i will answer your question as completely as possible.

first, i'd like to address the specific example of the sunday obligation, and then address the more general topic of the catholic view of salvation and fear of hell.

[quote]For instance, it doesn't compute with me that if you miss mass on Sunday you receive an automatic ticket to hell.[/quote]
this is actually not so black and white as it may seem. first off, in order for an act to qualify as a mortal sin--the only sin that would deliver such a "ticket"--three qualifications must be met:

1. the sin is grave in nature
2. full knowledge that the act is sinful
3. deliberate consent of the will to either choose good or turn away from God.

the catechism elaborates on these qualities of mortal sin in greater detail in [b][url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#IV"]paragraphs 1854-1864[/url][/b]. at any rate, knowing of these three, one cannot just say "well u missed church so ur going to hell" unless all three apply to this specific situation. the church admits of times in which missing mass would not be mortally sinful:

[b]2181[/b] The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, [b]unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor[/b]. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

also, note that it is not for us to determine if someone is in a state of mortal sin:

[b]1861[/b] Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. [b]However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.[/b]

this is for two reasons:
1. we have to take the plank from our own eye before we can bother with the splinter of another
2. as outside observers, we cannot know w/ certainity rather all three qualifications of mortal sin have been fulfilled. we know it is grave b/c it breaks one of the ten commandments ("keep holy the sabbath or Lord's day") but only that person and God knows the degree of knowledge and consent that is present.

finally, even if one is mortally sinful in neglecting the sunday obligation, this does not necessarily mean that we are destined for hell. afterall, until the day we leave this earth we have the chance to be reconciled to God and to our fellow man through the sacrament of reconciliation. therefore, the only real ticket to hell is the mortal sin that is not reconciled before our death.

for more on if missing mass is a mortal sin, please read [b][url="http://cuf.org/member/missingmassmortalsin.pdf"]this article[/url][/b].

now, to address the more general issue of salvation, and hell around every corner:

[quote]Often the thought by Protestants is: "How can you relate Catholicism to anything BUT the pharisees?" It really does seem that around every corner hell awaits.[/quote]

i don't think this fear is nearly as prevalent and dibilitating as some protestants expect. please excuse me for generalizing, but it appears as though most protestants assume that if u don't believe in OSAS, then u must naturally live in constant fear that you are going to hell. this just is not so.

for one, even though catholics do not believe in an assurance of salvation, we do believe in a hope for salvation. through prayer, reflection, discernment, and knowledge of the effects of sin, we can determine the nature of our relationship w/ God. if i have maintained a life of obedient faith void of mortal sin, then i can sleep well at night, and i have hope that salvation will be mine one day.

another source of encouragement are the many graces that catholics recieve through the seven sacraments of the Church. i know w/ certainity that whenever i accept the gift of God's grace through his sacraments, that i am recieving true and dependable aids for my walk w/ the Lord.

finally, i know that if my relationship w/ the Lord is ever in doubt, and even if it is surely severed, i have recourse to his unconditional love and forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation. i know w/o a shadow of a doubt that if i enter the confessional w/ a true and contrite heart, i will exist it a clean man, a new creation completely reconciled to the lord.

much more could be written on this topic. hopefully what i have provided will suffice. finally, to your closing remarks:

[quote]To me that throws us right back to the Old Testament mosaic law, only now its the new testament law, where everything still applies. Screw up in one little way even after salvation, and its off to hell you go packing.

Maybe you can explain it in a way I understand?[/quote]
i would like to take another angle on this comment then the one you might be expecting. i am reminded of some valuable advise from christopher west (an "expert" on the theology of the body) and i think it will be useful here.

some people look at the teaching authority of the church, and all they see are a bunch of pesky rules that they have to follow. "all u want to do is control us and keep us from having any fun" they may think. in response, west poses this question:

--is the problem here with an overbearing Church, or w/ personal hardness of heart?

west suggests that if our hearts were not hardened by sin, that we would not reject God's Word and the guidance of His Church. if our hearts were properly "softened" then we wouldn't even need such guidance or "restriction." this may at first reek of heresy, but here my out. an example will help to illustrate my point:

i love my brothers. i would give my life for them in a heartbeat. likewise, they have never woken up in the night to desperate cries of, "Gosh darnit! if only God didn't say 'thou shall not kill' i could take a knife and kill all my brothers! this lousy, oppresive church!" they haven't heard this b/c, when it comes to my brothers, i don't need this "restriction." my heart is properly softened so that this commandment is not a burden on me.

BUT, oh how i will find a way to avoid getting up for church, or to somehow reconcile my perverted sexual habits. oh, how i lament that masturbation and sex before marriage are sinful. see what i mean? i say that it is hardness of heart that causes a person to look at the church as merely a possessive and vengeful parent that restricts us in silly, nonsensical ways.

i hope you don't think that i'm calling you out specifically. i think this goes for anyone--catholic and non-catholic alike--who finds it cumbersome or burdensome to live a good and holy life. if the bible is the inspired word of God.......if the catholic church is the one church of jesus christ, then we must trust the guidance found within.

His yoke is light............if our love is real.

i hope this answers all of your questions. i'll try in the future to be more succint.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

i would also like to provide this quote, from karl keating's tract on "assurance of salvation":

===========================================================
[b][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Assurance of Salvation?[/url][/b]

Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, "By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" ([b]1 John 3:10[/b]), "If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" ([b]1 John 4:20[/b]), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" ([b]1 John 5:3[/b]).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" ([b]Phil. 1:6[/b]). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, "It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" ([b]1:7[/b]). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" ([b]2 Tim. 4:7-8[/b]). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" ([b]1 Cor. 4:4[/b]). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" ([b]1 Cor. 9:27[/b]). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. [b]Matt. 7:22-23[/b]). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" ([b]Jer. 17:9[/b]). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" ([b]Luke 8:13[/b]). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

For example, [b]Philippians 2:12[/b] says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
============================================================

i apologize for cutting and pasting. i remembered reading this and thought that it would be helpful as well.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited March 23, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

phatcatholic, I've downloaded the entire Catholic Answers library and printed half of it to put it in a binder for quick reference

As I sit here and think about everything you said, about hardness of heart and missing mass on sunday being mortal (which is really odd cause the catachism says you only have to attend once a year, on Easter if possible). I still remember times in my own life where I have not gone to church, but it hasn't been because I'm "giving the finger to God". It has nothing to do with wanting to disobey God at all. I don't know. I will pray about this more, but you have given a very thorough answer. Thank you.

Next question:

If one were to say "faith is being obedient to the will of God", would you then agree if the person says "we are saved by faith alone"?

It seems to me, that for the Catholic, one is initially saved by participating in baptism, a work of God, not of man. And this baptism is in essance, not a "work" or "fruit", but of faith only does one come forward to be baptized.

It seems for the Catholic then, throughout life, one is so much "working to earn their salvation" like in the OT, but working out their salvation in the fruits that God enables us to do. A Catholic isn't doing good works because they think their good works is what gets them into heaven, but that good works is part of faith- being obedient to God's will.

Make any sense?