Fixin' To Apologize Me Some Protestants

[Arpy]

Right, so I’m giving a talk on Catholicism to our dinky community college’s [mostly evangelical] Christian club next Wednesday. I’m the only Catholic there, and I’ve pretty much been waiting all quarter to do this I plan to make a case for the Church’s authority, knock out sola fide and sola scriptura, and then talk on the papacy and the Eucharist if I have time (I’ll have about 25-30 minutes). Mark Shea’s “By What Authority?” has been hugely helpful to me, but I'm sure any advice from y'all would be helpful as well. Prayers are also welcome, as this is the first time I’ve done anything like this and I am rather nervous.

[Selah]

good luck! Break a leg! I'll pray for you.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Selah

[CatherineM]

I've heard more than one converted Protestant talk about how reading the works of the Early Church Fathers made up a big part of their decision to join RCIA. I'd recommend something from St. Irenaeus of Lyons. He was a disciple of St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John the Evangelist. His "Against Heresies" was written around 180-190 AD.

In I. 10. it says, "As I have already observed, the church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points of doctrine just as if she had but one soul, and one the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth."

In III.3. it says, "It is within the power of all, therefore, in every church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the Apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the churches, and to demonstrate the successions of these men to our own times;" "I say by indicating that tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul; as also by pointing out the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere..."

[tinytherese]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/"]http://www.catholic.com/[/url] has a lot of info regarding apologetics.

Edited February 19, 2009 by tinytherese

[cmotherofpirl]

I have a soft spot for Pope St Clement. He is writing to the same Corinthians that drove Paul crazy. The important point is that he as the successor of St Peter wrote it between 70-90 AD, while St John Evangelist is still alive. They are acting up again and he as POPE is correcting them.
Here he is talking about the organization of the Church in his letter to the Corinthians:

Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.
The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.

Chapter 44. The Ordinances of the Apostles, that There Might Be No Contention Respecting the Priestly Office.
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry.


Then he yells at the Corinthians:
Cp 47. Your Recent Discord is Worse Than the Former Which Took Place in the Times of Paul.
Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you. But that inclination for one above another entailed less guilt upon you, inasmuch as your partialities were then shown towards apostles, already of high reputation, and towards a man whom they had approved. But now reflect who those are that have perverted you, and lessened the renown of your far-famed brotherly love. It is disgraceful, beloved, yea, highly disgraceful, and unworthy of your Christian profession, that such a thing should be heard of as that the most steadfast and ancient church of the Corinthians should, on account of one or two persons, engage in sedition against its presbyters. And this rumour has reached not only us, but those also who are unconnected with us; so that, through your infatuation, the name of the Lord is blasphemed, while danger is also brought upon yourselves.


And tells them what they must do:
Cp48:Let us therefore, with all haste, put an end to this [state of things]; and let us fall down before the Lord, and beseech Him with tears, that He would mercifully be reconciled to us, and restore us to our former seemly and holy practice of brotherly love.

Cp57 You therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that you should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, you should be cast out from the hope of His people.

CP59 If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger; but we shall be innocent of this sin, and, instant in prayer and supplication, shall desire that the Creator of all preserve unbroken the computed number of His elect in the whole world through His beloved Son Jesus Christ,

Cp 63:
Right is it, therefore, to approach examples so good and so many, and submit the neck and fulfil the part of obedience, in order that, undisturbed by vain sedition, we may attain unto the goal set before us in truth wholly free from blame. Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter. We have sent men faithful and discreet, whose conversation from youth to old age has been blameless among us,— the same shall be witnesses between you and us. This we have done, that you may know that our whole concern has been and is that you may be speedily at peace.


All this, within about 50 years of the crucifixion.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Arpy' post='1784709' date='Feb 18 2009, 05:32 PM']Right, so I’m giving a talk on Catholicism to our dinky community college’s [mostly evangelical] Christian club next Wednesday. I’m the only Catholic there, and I’ve pretty much been waiting all quarter to do this I plan to make a case for the Church’s authority, knock out sola fide and sola scriptura, and then talk on the papacy and the Eucharist if I have time (I’ll have about 25-30 minutes). Mark Shea’s “By What Authority?” has been hugely helpful to me, but I'm sure any advice from y'all would be helpful as well. Prayers are also welcome, as this is the first time I’ve done anything like this and I am rather nervous.[/quote]
for more resources we have our own defense directory.

[tinytherese]

This article on being an apologist may also help.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102fea1.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102fea1.asp[/url]

[Saint Therese]

If you can't answer some of their questions, don't let it throw you. Just tell them that you'll have to study further and get back to them.

[Arpy]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1786410' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:13 AM']for more resources we have our own defense directory.[/quote]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/_images/v11/404_b16.jpg[/img]

I'd known about catholic.com, but this time around I found a Scripture reference list that I plan to print out and distribute, so thanks for directing my attention there, whichever-Therese-you-are.

[thessalonian]

I would narrow the scope if I were you. In 25-30 minutes you cannot do an adequate job on that many topics. Authority is key and Shea's book is very good on that account.

[thessalonian]

By the way, if you enjoy apologetics I highly suggest books such as Patrick Madrid's "Search and Rescue" and Fr. Ralph Raoul's "Winning souls for Christ.". They will give you the charitable aspects of apolgetics that I lacked early on when my enthusiasm was not tempered by love for protestants. Over the years I've come to an understanding of just how blessed I am to be in the fullness of Christ's truth in the Catholic faith and how difficult it is to find that truth in this confused world. I have much more compassion for protestants and others. Memorize 1 Pet 3:15.

God bless you in your efforts.

Edited February 23, 2009 by thessalonian

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Arpy' post='1784709' date='Feb 18 2009, 05:32 PM']Right, so I’m giving a talk on Catholicism to our dinky community college’s [mostly evangelical] Christian club next Wednesday. I’m the only Catholic there, and I’ve pretty much been waiting all quarter to do this I plan to make a case for the Church’s authority, knock out sola fide and sola scriptura, and then talk on the papacy and the Eucharist if I have time (I’ll have about 25-30 minutes). Mark Shea’s “By What Authority?” has been hugely helpful to me, but I'm sure any advice from y'all would be helpful as well. Prayers are also welcome, as this is the first time I’ve done anything like this and I am rather nervous.[/quote]

Based on my experiences, I expect your Evangelical friends will appreciate what you believe, learn a lot they hadn't heard before, but ultimately decide that these issues are not important enough to be divisive within the Church. It's like a form of Christian post-modernism: what's good for you may not be good for me, but we can all get along and believe in the Gospel. Like I'm trying to say in the Orthodox saints thread, straight intellectual reasoning doesn't work with most people in today's culture. People need a down to earth, practical reason to consider Catholicism: what difference does it make in our daily life? Fact is, you're not going to "knock out" Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura... there are plenty of sound arguments on the Protestant side in favor of those doctrines and, again, the whole time you're battling in the head, the heart is ignored. But the one thing you can tell that nobody else can is your own story. What caused you to fall in love with the Church? Why is that so important? What difference has it made in your life?

And if you really want to challenge them... get 'em to think about how Catholicism is the very definition of being Christ-centered.

[MissyP89]

Don't be abrasive, and don't walk in there wanting to take them out. Focus on our similarities and go from there--this way it will be less of a confrontation and more of an open opportunity for dialogue. Allow for discussion. Be holy.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1789294' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:31 PM']Don't be abrasive, and don't walk in there wanting to take them out. Focus on our similarities and go from there--this way it will be less of a confrontation and more of an open opportunity for dialogue. Allow for discussion. Be holy. [/quote]

Yes, there are some very important areas where agreement can be established right off the bat. Namely, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria. And the pope says we can agree with sola fide under the condition of how we define faith. Hey, 3.5 out of 5 ain't bad

[LouisvilleFan]

So, how'd the talk go? Got an RCIA class started?