Are Catholics Going Nuts?

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1785029' date='Feb 18 2009, 09:59 PM']St. Catherine of Siena wrote to criticize the Pope himself.[/quote]

I was reminded of that too when I got onto this post.


I think that we should correct church leaders when necessary, but in a charitable and humble manner.

[CatherineM]

I love reading St. Catherine's stuff. She would always start off by saying how little and unimportant she was, and then, oh by the way, Gregory, you should return to Rome.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
from the article:
[quote]When it comes to dealing with an erring bishop, a pope is far more likely to employ methods such as persuasion, fraternal correction, and gentle chiding than he is to wield the club of discipline—much less the atomic bomb of removal. There are at least three reasons for this. The first is charity: If a bishop is saying or doing bad or dumb things, we are all—especially the pope—obliged to assume in charity that he is well-intentioned and is acting either out of ignorance or confusion, barring evidence to the contrary (supposition, conjecture, and probability do not count as evidence). The experience of the church bears out the wisdom of this approach, as does my own experience as a pastor: In my experience, most Catholics who embrace positions at odds with Church teaching are well-intentioned—they want to follow Christ. But they are either uninformed, misinformed, or malformed (in their conscience or intellect). All three of those conditions can be remedied with great patience and love.

John Paul dedicated a good amount of his energy to correcting the errors to which many Catholics, including bishops and priests, had succumbed. His approach was to teach, explain, and correct. This approach does not yield a quick fix, but there is evidence that his work has already begun to bear fruit: in the throngs of young Catholics who fervently embrace the Church’s teaching, in the rise of dynamic orthodoxy, in the founding and growth of authentically Catholic colleges, and in the signs of a resurgence of vocations in dioceses and religious communities that make no compromises on Catholic teachings.[/quote]

[Didacus]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1784555' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:02 PM']+J.M.J.+
[url="http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2009/02/what.html"]so asks Terry Nelson:[/url]

so what do you guys think about his statement?[/quote]

Its true, The Church is NOT a democracy. And it is not up to the liaty to put pressure on the bishops to act in a way we see fit.

If the petition was towards Biden and/or Pelosi to repent and refrain from accepting communion, that would be a different story.

Just my 2 canadien cents, whuich recently is not worth as much as those US cents anymore, but in time may regain that plateau versus the mighty greenback.

[jeffpugh]

Don't forget Hildegard of Bingen criticizing the Bishops of Mainz

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1785029' date='Feb 18 2009, 07:59 PM']I've got to say I'm with "Lord Philip" here.
Obviously, the Church is not a democracy, and the bishops are not obligated to heed the petition, but there is certainly nothing wrong with making such a petition.

This is not a case of Catholics trying to "democratically" change Church teaching or official practice, but rather a plea that they [b]follow the standards already set by the Church on giving Holy Communion to obstinately pro-abortion politicians.[/b]
From the CDF letter to the bishops regarding worthiness to receive Holy Communion written by Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI):~ [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm"]Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion General Principles by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger[/url]

Quite frankly, bishops who blithely allow blatantly pro-abort "Catholic" pols like Pelosi, etc. to receive Communion are failing in their duties, and should be encouraged in charity to follow their duties in this respect.

While this petition provoked some howls about lay people trying to "do the bishop's job," the truth is that too many bishops are not doing their own job.
While some here complain about "nutty" conservative Catholics trying to influence the bishops, it's a sad fact that too many Bishops have in fact gotten too cozy with left-wing politicians and the Dem Party, and are willing to cut them undue slack for political reasons. There's no reason outside influence on bishops should only come from the Left.

There's also nothing wrong with faithful lay persons criticizing bishops and urging them to be more dutiful in their public actions. As mentioned, St. Paul criticized St. Peter, and St. Catherine of Siena wrote to criticize the Pope himself.
While some lay people may indeed have an overly-critical insubordinate attitude, there are cases where legitimate criticism is called for, and I believe the negligence of many bishops concerning the serious public scandal of pro-abort "Catholic" pols is one of these.

While I'm not familiar with the blogger originally quoted in this thread, I wonder if he'd be similarly outraged by lay people petitioning for some more pc cause, or if he'd instead praise the "voice of the people" or something.

I think more orthodox Catholics should make their voices heard on such matters in a positive and constructive manner (like this petition). Certainly better than just sitting around bitching among ourselves.[/quote]

Thanks "Socrates." I think your post adequately presents any rebuttal I would have added here.

Not sure what one can say in light of such blinding evidence.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1784625' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:50 PM']Canon 212 states that the Catholic faithful have "..the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church."

This is stated in the petition.

Reminds me of when St. Paul rebuked St. Peter for refusing to eat with Gentiles. St. Paul could have just "let the pope be the pope", but even though he held an inferior office in the Church, he let St. Peter know that he had seriously transgressed against the New Covenant.

The heretics within the Church have been using some of the reforms of Vatican II (giving more of a role of the laity within the Church) to their evil ends long enough. It is high time the orthodox start using it to stamp out the heretics and to reclaim the Church from their Satanic clutches. We can no longer make peace with the devil. It is time now for war.

The bishops are the successors to the Apostles, but in today's environment it is all to easy for them to become reduced to program administrators. This petition simply reminds them that they are princes within the Church and that they are given power from Christ [b]for a reason[/b]. Christ does not just throw around Apostolic authority to no purpose. This petition simply reminds the bishops of that and lets them know that we, the Catholic faithful, stand by them. Christ has given them the 20 talents, will they just bury that spiritual investment until the last day comes upon the world? God forbid; for their sakes and for the sake of the world.

Pope St. Pius V said: "All the evil in the world can be attributed to lukewarm Catholics." Damnation and hellfire. This means we can prevent evil but that we continue to choose to do nothing. Fie on the outrage.

People who cry out against this with the "just let the people who are responsible for this take care of it..." mentality should stop, realize their duty to change the world, and sign the petition. At least it's a start. At least it's [b]something[/b].[/quote]


well said.

also soc's was well said as well.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1785445' date='Feb 19 2009, 01:01 PM']Its true, The Church is NOT a democracy. And it is not up to the liaty to put pressure on the bishops to act in a way we see fit.

If the petition was towards Biden and/or Pelosi to repent and refrain from accepting communion, that would be a different story.

Just my 2 canadien cents, whuich recently is not worth as much as those US cents anymore, but in time may regain that plateau versus the mighty greenback.[/quote]
As I've said before, this is not about the Church being a democracy - it's not about putting pressure on the bishops to act in a way [i]we[/i] see fit (as with liberal "Catholics" petitioning the Church to allow contraception, or gay marriage, etc.), but rather with petitioning the bishops to act as [i]the Church[/i] sees fit. (Please re-read the CDF document I had quoted concerning giving Communion to pro-abortion politicians).

As said document makes clear, this is not a matter of telling the bishops how to manage the private discipline of individuals for private sins, but a matter of grave public scandal.
With so much confusion among Catholics today on this matter, and so many (including clergy) being perfectly okay with supporting pro-abortion politicians and thinking you can be a good Catholic and also have a "pro-choice" political stance, the Church should do all it can to make it clear that one cannot take such a stance and be in good standing with the Church.

From the article concerning the petition:[quote][b]Canon 212 S3, states that the Catholic faithful have " ..the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church."[/b][/quote]

Did you also read the examples of the saints, and the quote from Archbishop Sheen given in this thread?

And maybe one should ask who this Terry Nelson character is, and why his opinion should somehow carry greater weight.

This whole idea that the faithful laity should simply sit on their rears and say nothing regarding whether the bishops do their duties is entirely baseless, and is an example of clericalism at its worst.
I'm signing that petition.

[KnightofChrist]

[color="#FF0000"][b]"The Church's law is very clear, the person who persists publicly in grave sin is to be denied Holy Communion, and it [Canon Law] doesn't say that the bishop shall decide this. [u]It's an absolute."[/u][/b] - Archbishop Burke, Apostolic Signatura.[/color]

[url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/feb/09020402.html"]Vatican Official: [b]Bishops Have no Choice[/b] But to Refuse Communion to Pro-Abort Politicians[/url]

By Hilary White

ROME, January 30, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Archbishop Raymond Burke, in an exclusive interview last week, told LifeSiteNews.com that the issue of pro-abortion politicians continuing to receive Holy Communion is still one of major concern and that it is the duty of bishops to ensure that they are refused.

He told LifeSiteNews.com, "I don't understand the continual debate that goes on about it. There's not a question that a Catholic who publicly, and after admonition, supports pro-abortion legislation is not to receive Holy Communion and is not to be given Holy Communion."

"The Church's law is very clear," said Archbishop Burke, who was appointed last year by Pope Benedict XVI as the head of the Church's highest court, the Apostolic Signatura. "The person who persists publicly in grave sin is to be denied Holy Communion, and it [Canon Law] doesn't say that the bishop shall decide this. It's an absolute."

Among the US bishops directly to address the issue, Archbishop Burke was one of around a dozen who vigorously supported a directive of the Vatican that said pro-abortion Catholic politicians "must be refused" Holy Communion if they attempt to receive at Mass. Others have refused to abide by the Vatican instruction and the Church's own Code of Canon Law, saying they would rather focus on "education" of such politicians.

Archbishop Burke called "nonsense" the accusation, regularly made by some bishops, that refusing Holy Communion "makes the Communion rail a [political] battle ground". In fact, he said, the precise opposite is true. The politician who insists on being seen receiving Holy Communion, despite his opposition to the Church's central teachings, is using that reception for political leverage.

In 2004, when self-proclaimed Catholic and candidate for the Democrat party, Sen. John Kerry, was frequently photographed receiving Holy Communion despite his vigorous support of abortion, the US Bishops Conference issued a document which said only that it is up to individual bishops whether to implement the Church's code of Canon Law and refuse Communion. The issue has remained prominent with the appointment of Joe Biden, another pro-abortion Catholic politician, as Vice President of the United States of America.

Archbishop Burke recalled previous experiences with Kerry, pointing to the several occasions when the senator was pictured in Time magazine receiving Communion from Papal representatives at various public events. Burke said that it is clear that Kerry was using his reception of Holy Communion to send a message.

"He wants to not only receive Holy Communion from a bishop but from the papal representative. I think that's what his point was. Get it in Time magazine, so people read it and say to themselves, 'He must be in good standing'."

"What are they doing? They're using the Eucharist as a political tool."

In refusing, far from politicising the Eucharist, the Church is returning the matter to its religious reality. The most important reasons to refuse, he said, are pastoral and religious in nature.

"The Holy Eucharist, the most sacred reality of our life in the Church, has to be protected against sacrilege. At the same time, individuals have to be protected for the sake of their own salvation from committing one of the gravest sins, namely to receive Holy Communion unworthily."

Archbishop Burke also dismissed the commonly proffered excuse that such politicians need more "education". Speaking from his own direct experience, he said that Catholic politicians who are informed by their pastors or bishops that their positions in support of pro-abortion legislation makes it impossible for them to receive Holy Communion, "I've always found that they don't come forward."

"When you talk to these people, they know," he said. "They know what they're doing is very wrong. They have to answer to God for that, but why through our pastoral negligence add on to that, that they have to answer to God for who knows how many unworthy receptions of Holy Communion?"

Archbishop Burke said that the issue had been debated enough. He rejected the idea that the matter should be left to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, saying the Conference has no authority in the matter. "This is a law of the universal Church and it should be applied."

"I think this argument too is being used by people who don't want to confront the issue, this whole 'wait 'til the Conference decides'...well the Conference has been discussing this since at least 2004. And nothing happens."

When asked what the solution was, he responded, "Individual bishops and priests simply have to do their duty. They have to confront politicians, Catholic politicians, who are sinning gravely and publicly in this regard. And that's their duty.

"And if they carry it out, not only can they not be reproached for that, but they should be praised for confronting this situation."

Edited February 20, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

I thought we were already nuts.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1786048' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:44 PM']I thought we were already nuts. [/quote]

I'm already nuts.

What will people do if they know I'm a Jesus freak?

Edited February 20, 2009 by tinytherese

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1785042' date='Feb 18 2009, 09:11 PM']How are people supposed to find and sign a non-public petition? Politicians pay attention to such things because people who are mad enough to sign a petition are also people who vote.[/quote]
What I mean is 'less public' as in mostly kept to themselves in the particular diocese.
I mean people in the diocese have to know so they can sign, but if possible, is there really good reason for the rest of the world to know?

[thessalonian]

A few years back the rainbow sash group was making a statement on the day of Pentecost here in Minnesota down at our beloved Cathedral. It had been going on for several years and the archbishop had been allowing it. A group got together called "Ushers of the Eucharist". We went and confronted the gays and asked them not to receive communion. The Archbishop opposed our actions because he said we shouldn't be making statements at Mass (yet oddly he was allowing the gays to do it). We did not recieve communion at that Mass. I know how grave a thing it is to oppose the bishop but I joined the group and participated. This got all the way back to the Vatican it seems and our Archbishop was called in to the JPII and who knows what was said. But the next year the gays and all who wore the sash were denied commuion. I don't regret my actions. I did go to confession about it but was supported by the priest in confession over the matter. The scandal was very great. In truth I think this scandal is as great or greater. Thanks for posting the petition. I signed and am going to pass it along. Sometimes the magesterium does need to be told that yes, in fact, we the laity are being scandalized. I've seen people leave the church over such scandal. People who at one time were walking the walk.

Edited February 20, 2009 by thessalonian

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1786288' date='Feb 20 2009, 10:43 AM']I mean people in the diocese have to know so they can sign, but if possible, is there really good reason for the rest of the world to know?[/quote]
Absolutely!
If we don't stand for Christ in the Eucharist, who will?

[Slappo]

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." 1 Cor 11:27-29

We are signing the petition because we desire the salvation of souls and the protection of the Eucharist from profanation. We petition as to give our bishops courage to stand fast to such truths for the protection of the souls of the Church and the reverence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Many people that sign the petition don't have bishops that are dealing with such abuses and scandals and therefore the bishop isn't being corrected by his faithful, but encouraged to stand fast if ever such problem arise.