Are Catholics Going Nuts?

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[url="http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2009/02/what.html"]so asks Terry Nelson:[/url]
[quote]Check this out: [url="http://pewsitter.com/view_news_id_15314.php"]A nation-wide petition to prohibit Nancy and Joe from receiving Holy Communion.[/url]
.
Who's causing a bigger scandal now? These matters are up to the bishops. And the Pope already knows about it. The Church is not a beaver dam democracy.[/quote]
so what do you guys think about his statement?

[Maggyie]

I have to admit, it does annoy me. I share their unhappiness with Speaker Pelosi, but honestly, let bishops be bishops. Granted many bishops smell of elderberries at their job but that doesn't mean Jesus wants us to help them do it

[CatherineM]

I certainly don't want their job. Sometimes though I think they can be influenced by feelings that they don't want to alienate people. Maybe a petition would make them understand that we will stand behind them when they make really hard decisions. Most of the time they don't know that because all they hear are complaints.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1784555' date='Feb 18 2009, 12:02 PM']+J.M.J.+
[url="http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2009/02/what.html"]so asks Terry Nelson:[/url]

so what do you guys think about his statement?[/quote]

Canon 212 states that the Catholic faithful have "..the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church."

This is stated in the petition.

Reminds me of when St. Paul rebuked St. Peter for refusing to eat with Gentiles. St. Paul could have just "let the pope be the pope", but even though he held an inferior office in the Church, he let St. Peter know that he had seriously transgressed against the New Covenant.

The heretics within the Church have been using some of the reforms of Vatican II (giving more of a role of the laity within the Church) to their evil ends long enough. It is high time the orthodox start using it to stamp out the heretics and to reclaim the Church from their Satanic clutches. We can no longer make peace with the devil. It is time now for war.

The bishops are the successors to the Apostles, but in today's environment it is all to easy for them to become reduced to program administrators. This petition simply reminds them that they are princes within the Church and that they are given power from Christ [b]for a reason[/b]. Christ does not just throw around Apostolic authority to no purpose. This petition simply reminds the bishops of that and lets them know that we, the Catholic faithful, stand by them. Christ has given them the 20 talents, will they just bury that spiritual investment until the last day comes upon the world? God forbid; for their sakes and for the sake of the world.

Pope St. Pius V said: "All the evil in the world can be attributed to lukewarm Catholics." Damnation and hellfire. This means we can prevent evil but that we continue to choose to do nothing. Fie on the outrage.

People who cry out against this with the "just let the people who are responsible for this take care of it..." mentality should stop, realize their duty to change the world, and sign the petition. At least it's a start. At least it's [b]something[/b].

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1784555' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:02 PM']+J.M.J.+
[url="http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2009/02/what.html"]so asks Terry Nelson:[/url]

so what do you guys think about his statement?[/quote]
I understand the frustration, the anger, and the feeling no one in the hierarchy gives a beaver dam. These people give great and grave scandal to the Body of Christ, and leave many faithful catholics feeling as walking wounded, as sheep without shepherds.
I think in many places there is a great hunger for leadership, not a statement from a conference somewhere, but someone to say the line has been crossed and here we are: stand strong or leave us in peace, but make a choice.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1784617' date='Feb 18 2009, 12:46 PM']I certainly don't want their job. Sometimes though I think they can be influenced by feelings that they don't want to alienate people. Maybe a petition would make them understand that we will stand behind them when they make really hard decisions. Most of the time they don't know that because all they hear are complaints.[/quote]

Excellent point, Catherine. We need the bishops to know that we stand behind them.

[Maggyie]

Speaker Pelosi's bishop is not going to see this petition and think "oh my druthers! Let me re-evaluate my carefully considered pastoral handling of this situation in light of the fact that a couple thousand Catholics prefer a different approach and signed their name to an electronic form to that effect!"

Remember a few years back when the liberals in Europe got up "the petition of the people of the Church" or some such I believe it was called. Fizzle.

Keep in mind that the Pope himself (both John Paul II and Benedict XVI) have given communion at Mass to pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage politicians. From the Pope's own hands! Laymen may believe "it is now time for war" but the authorities God has placed in charge of the Church don't agree AT ALL. This puzzles me but, you know what, so what. And it's not like Pope Benedict or John Paul are/were cowards. If they felt such action was pastorally necessary they would do it. They have been willing to endure plenty of threats and nastiness in the past in order to do what is right.

The layman's view of a bishop is "successor of the Apostles who is an idiot and needs to get a list every day from we orthodox Catholics (tm) on how he should fulfill his ministry." The bishop's view of a layman is "member of Christ's royal priesthood, member of the body of Christ who knows nothing about the reality of ministry but thinks he does, has a very distinct agenda and wants to use the Church to acheive it." This conflict has become VERY aggravated since the Second Vatican Council.


[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1784625' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:50 PM']Canon 212 states that the Catholic faithful have "..the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church."

This is stated in the petition.

Reminds me of when St. Paul rebuked St. Peter for refusing to eat with Gentiles. St. Paul could have just "let the pope be the pope", but even though he held an inferior office in the Church, he let St. Peter know that he had seriously transgressed against the New Covenant.

The heretics within the Church have been using some of the reforms of Vatican II (giving more of a role of the laity within the Church) to their evil ends long enough. It is high time the orthodox start using it to stamp out the heretics and to reclaim the Church from their Satanic clutches. We can no longer make peace with the devil. It is time now for war.

The bishops are the successors to the Apostles, but in today's environment it is all to easy for them to become reduced to program administrators. This petition simply reminds them that they are princes within the Church and that they are given power from Christ [b]for a reason[/b]. Christ does not just throw around Apostolic authority to no purpose. This petition simply reminds the bishops of that and lets them know that we, the Catholic faithful, stand by them. Christ has given them the 20 talents, will they just bury that spiritual investment until the last day comes upon the world? God forbid; for their sakes and for the sake of the world.

Pope St. Pius V said: "All the evil in the world can be attributed to lukewarm Catholics." Damnation and hellfire. This means we can prevent evil but that we continue to choose to do nothing. Fie on the outrage.

People who cry out against this with the "just let the people who are responsible for this take care of it..." mentality should stop, realize their duty to change the world, and sign the petition. At least it's a start. At least it's [b]something[/b].[/quote]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1784710' date='Feb 18 2009, 02:33 PM']Speaker Pelosi's bishop is not going to see this petition and think "oh my druthers! Let me re-evaluate my carefully considered pastoral handling of this situation in light of the fact that a couple thousand Catholics prefer a different approach and signed their name to an electronic form to that effect!"

Remember a few years back when the liberals in Europe got up "the petition of the people of the Church" or some such I believe it was called. Fizzle.

Keep in mind that the Pope himself (both John Paul II and Benedict XVI) have given communion at Mass to pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage politicians. From the Pope's own hands! Laymen may believe "it is now time for war" but the authorities God has placed in charge of the Church don't agree AT ALL. This puzzles me but, you know what, so what. And it's not like Pope Benedict or John Paul are/were cowards. If they felt such action was pastorally necessary they would do it. They have been willing to endure plenty of threats and nastiness in the past in order to do what is right.

The layman's view of a bishop is "successor of the Apostles who is an idiot and needs to get a list every day from we orthodox Catholics (tm) on how he should fulfill his ministry." The bishop's view of a layman is "member of Christ's royal priesthood, member of the body of Christ who knows nothing about the reality of ministry but thinks he does, has a very distinct agenda and wants to use the Church to acheive it." This conflict has become VERY aggravated since the Second Vatican Council.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
well said, and i want to emphasize one point that you made:
[quote]The layman's view of a bishop is "successor of the Apostles who is an idiot and needs to get a list every day from we orthodox Catholics (tm) on how he should fulfill his ministry." The bishop's view of a layman is "member of Christ's royal priesthood, member of the body of Christ who knows nothing about the reality of ministry but thinks he does, has a very distinct agenda and wants to use the Church to acheive it." [b]This conflict has become VERY aggravated since the Second Vatican Council.[/b][/quote]
i would say on both sides ('liberal' and 'orthodox') it has become very aggravated. i often think of the article from This Rock magazine that talks about how the Pope and his relationships to the bishops are viewed, not just from the 'world' perspective, but how they are viewed even from those inside the Church.

edit: here's the article: [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0602fea1.asp"]Why Doesn't the Pope Do Something About "Bad" Bishops?[/url]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1784627' date='Feb 18 2009, 12:53 PM']Excellent point, Catherine. We need the bishops to know that we stand behind them.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
yes, we do! i just don't happen to think (not accusing you of thinking this way ) that we need to sign public petitions.

[MithLuin]

I must say that it bothers me when I see people trying to tell bishops how to do their job. I know that we are allowed to write to our politicians, but you know what? They write back, 'Thank you very much - this is why I make the decisions I do.' In other words, they appreciate the feedback, but don't see the need to be told how to do their job.

If we write to our bishops, it should be to share our concerns and to offer our support and prayers. We should *not* tell them what to do. Communication is good, but it always bothers me when orthodox Catholics claim to be so faithful to the Magisterium and then pick fights with the local bishop. There's a...disconnect there.

I am not saying that all bishops are perfect or always make the right choices. I'm just saying that they are the ones with the responsibility and graces for the job, so we should be working with them as much as possible, not working against them.

[Socrates]

I've got to say I'm with "Lord Philip" here.
Obviously, the Church is not a democracy, and the bishops are not obligated to heed the petition, but there is certainly nothing wrong with making such a petition.

This is not a case of Catholics trying to "democratically" change Church teaching or official practice, but rather a plea that they [b]follow the standards already set by the Church on giving Holy Communion to obstinately pro-abortion politicians.[/b]
From the CDF letter to the bishops regarding worthiness to receive Holy Communion written by Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI):[quote]5. Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), [b]his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.[/b]

6.[b] When "these precautionary measures have not had their effect or in which they were not possible," and the person in question, with obstinate persistence, still presents himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, "the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it"[/b] (cf. Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts Declaration "Holy Communion and Divorced, Civilly Remarried Catholics" [2002], nos. 3-4). This decision, properly speaking, is not a sanction or a penalty. Nor is the minister of Holy Communion passing judgment on the person’s subjective guilt, but rather is reacting to the person’s public unworthiness to receive Holy Communion due to an objective situation of sin.[/quote]~ [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm"]Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion General Principles by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger[/url]

Quite frankly, bishops who blithely allow blatantly pro-abort "Catholic" pols like Pelosi, etc. to receive Communion are failing in their duties, and should be encouraged in charity to follow their duties in this respect.

While this petition provoked some howls about lay people trying to "do the bishop's job," the truth is that too many bishops are not doing their own job.
While some here complain about "nutty" conservative Catholics trying to influence the bishops, it's a sad fact that too many Bishops have in fact gotten too cozy with left-wing politicians and the Dem Party, and are willing to cut them undue slack for political reasons. There's no reason outside influence on bishops should only come from the Left.

There's also nothing wrong with faithful lay persons criticizing bishops and urging them to be more dutiful in their public actions. As mentioned, St. Paul criticized St. Peter, and St. Catherine of Siena wrote to criticize the Pope himself.
While some lay people may indeed have an overly-critical insubordinate attitude, there are cases where legitimate criticism is called for, and I believe the negligence of many bishops concerning the serious public scandal of pro-abort "Catholic" pols is one of these.

While I'm not familiar with the blogger originally quoted in this thread, I wonder if he'd be similarly outraged by lay people petitioning for some more pc cause, or if he'd instead praise the "voice of the people" or something.

I think more orthodox Catholics should make their voices heard on such matters in a positive and constructive manner (like this petition). Certainly better than just sitting around bitching among ourselves.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Socrates

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1785029' date='Feb 18 2009, 08:59 PM']I've got to say I'm with "Lord Philip" here.
Obviously, the Church is not a democracy, and the bishops are not obligated to heed the petition, but there is certainly nothing wrong with making such a petition.

This is not a case of Catholics trying to "democratically" change Church teaching or official practice, but rather a plea that they [b]follow the standards already set by the Church on giving Holy Communion to obstinately pro-abortion politicians.[/b]
From the CDF letter to the bishops regarding worthiness to receive Holy Communion written by Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI):~ [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm"]Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion General Principles by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger[/url]

Quite frankly, bishops who blithely allow blatantly pro-abort "Catholic" pols like Pelosi, etc. to receive Communion are failing in their duties, and should be encouraged in charity to follow their duties in this respect.

While this petition provoked some howls about lay people trying to "do the bishop's job," the truth is that too many bishops are not doing their own job.
While some here complain about "nutty" conservative Catholics trying to influence the bishops, it's a sad fact that too many Bishops have in fact gotten too cozy with left-wing politicians and the Dem Party, and are willing to cut them undue slack for political reasons. There's no reason outside influence on bishops should only come from the Left.

There's also nothing wrong with faithful lay persons criticizing bishops and urging them to be more dutiful in their public actions. As mentioned, St. Paul criticized St. Peter, and St. Catherine of Siena wrote to criticize the Pope himself.
While some lay people may indeed have an overly-critical insubordinate attitude, there are cases where legitimate criticism is called for, and I believe the negligence of many bishops concerning the serious public scandal of pro-abort "Catholic" pols is one of these.

While I'm not familiar with the blogger originally quoted in this thread, I wonder if he'd be similarly outraged by lay people petitioning for some more pc cause, or if he'd instead praise the "voice of the people" or something.

I think more orthodox Catholics should make their voices heard on such matters in a positive and constructive manner (like this petition). Certainly better than just sitting around bitching among ourselves.[/quote]
I don't disagree with you, but do you think it may have been more prudent for this petition to have been less public?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1785034' date='Feb 18 2009, 11:03 PM']I don't disagree with you, but do you think it may have been more prudent for this petition to have been less public?[/quote]
What do you mean by "less public"? - It's a public petition (and actually I hadn't heard of it before reading this).
If a petition is kept too under wraps, how do you get people to sign it?


People may disagree as to whether this course of action is the most prudent, but I certainly see nothing wrong with it on principle, and I think the outrage against the petition is misguided.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1785034' date='Feb 18 2009, 11:03 PM']I don't disagree with you, but do you think it may have been more prudent for this petition to have been less public?[/quote]
How are people supposed to find and sign a non-public petition? Politicians pay attention to such things because people who are mad enough to sign a petition are also people who vote.

[Maximilianus]

"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious act like religious."
- Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen