Hassan Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 [quote name='mortify' post='1785727' date='Feb 19 2009, 07:39 PM'][b]Muhammad Asad's[/b] translation from an online source: "And as for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them[b] [first][/b]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great! " The phrase in brackets is not part of the Qur'anic text; it's an addition made by the translator. Note that two other translations suggest no order of procedure: [b]PICKTHAL: [/b] "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. [b]SHAKIR: [/b] "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.[/quote] When I asked if you spoke Arabic it was not sacrastic I just really wanted to know. You say it is not contained in the text, you have presented two translations which you feel supports your view and I have presented two that support both my view and the traditional view so far as I know. "admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them" A literal reading of your translation seems a bit odd doesn't it? exactly how does a man, at once, admonish his wife, leave her alone (in the sleeping places) while also hitting her with a small stick? The job of a translator is not simply to render the closest word to word approximation but to also transmit the sense and implicit connotations of the text. For example, in a stupid fit of nerdiness when I had to write out my paper I wrote atop my little outline, "Что Делать" A literal translation would simply be "what to do" better translated "What is to be done". In my case it was a stupid ironic reference for my own ammusment. Refering back to it's historic significance within Revolutionary Russia, being fameous titles of both Nikolai Chernyshevsky and Lenin. A translators who simply took my title rendered it as "what to do" and in no way incorporated the ironic significance of it would not be presenting an accurate translation. A literal translation is in no way the necessairly most accurate. If you speak Arabic and can say that it is in no way implied that would be interesting to know. Muhammad Asad does not tend to alter the actual text to fit his views but it is possible. For example when translating the Qur'anic charge of assigning divinity to Ezra he translates it as "The Jews" rather than "The Jews[of Medina]" or something else that get's across his interpretation. ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1786610' date='Feb 20 2009, 07:01 PM']When I asked if you spoke Arabic it was not sacrastic I just really wanted to know. You say it is not contained in the text, you have presented two translations which you feel supports your view and I have presented two that support both my view and the traditional view so far as I know.[/quote] Notice that both Y. Ali's and M. Assad's translations add words in brackets. The brackets indicate these are words not present in the original text, but additions made by the author. [quote]"admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them" A literal reading of your translation seems a bit odd doesn't it? exactly how does a man, at once, admonish his wife, leave her alone (in the sleeping places) while also hitting her with a small stick? The job of a translator is not simply to render the closest word to word approximation but to also transmit the sense and implicit connotations of the text.[/quote] You're interpreting with an absurd amount of literalism here. It doesn't mean all these have to be done at the same exact time, only that they ought to be done. There is no indication for which should be done first nor is there an indication that a miswak should be used (which btw, if you've ever seen one of these they're too small to be used for a scourging.) [quote]Muhammad Asad does not tend to alter the actual text to fit his views but it is possible.[/quote] He added words to the verse to alter its meaning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [quote name='mortify' post='1787144' date='Feb 21 2009, 02:14 AM']Notice that both Y. Ali's and M. Assad's translations add words in brackets. The brackets indicate these are words not present in the original text, but additions made by the author. You're interpreting with an absurd amount of literalism here. It doesn't mean all these have to be done at the same exact time, only that they ought to be done. There is no indication for which should be done first nor is there an indication that a miswak should be used (which btw, if you've ever seen one of these they're too small to be used for a scourging.) He added words to the verse to alter its meaning![/quote] Do you speak Arabic? I really am not trying to trip you up or anything, I am just wondering how much you know what is or is not in the Arabic text, what is or is not implied in the text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1785036' date='Feb 18 2009, 11:06 PM']I know nothing about Arabic but have studied several other languages and this is a good point-literal interpretation is usually a terrible idea that does not translate the meaning within the original language. I'm not trying to defend the Koran saying ANYTHING remotely allowing any kind of violence between husband and wife but translation issues are something to keep in mind (this goes back to what I was saying earlier that in many religions, including Christianity, people use verses the way they want to to justify their ridiculous actions). I did read somewhere that the word uses for "beat" can also mean to "separate"-I think you mentioned this before-not sure if I believe this but there are people who do. (Of course, I don't necessarily even agree with the idea of leaving your wife in such a vaguely defined set of circumstances-I'm just pointing out some linguistic issues I could see being relevant). -Katie[/quote] You can search this topic on You Tube and there are plenty of clips from Arabic-language shows as well as interviews with various Islamic clerics discussing this topic. There is no translation problem. The Koran and Muslim tradition allows a husband to beat his wife. Period. Getting into hair-splitting and semantics over how hard or soft he can beat her is beside the point. He is allowed to resort to physical intimidation and physical punishment to keep her in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1784910' date='Feb 18 2009, 09:21 PM']I don't know what you mean... I said I didn't truly know that this was based on traditional Islamic teaching. I had thought that honor killings, wife beating, etc came from radical interpretations, just as some Christians take verses out of context and use them to justify, say, child abuse. Regarding people who might know something I don't who are you talking about?-Katie[/quote] That's my point, Katie. You said "I thought". Why would you just make some assumption in your mind that certain points in Islamic theology were just misinterpretations by "crazies"? Being that you admitted to having no knowledge of the topic, I'm just bewildered as to why your first assumption about certain points was that "the crazies" must have it all wrong, rather than fact-checking on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1787229' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:07 AM']That's my point, Katie. You said "I thought". Why would you just make some assumption in your mind that certain points in Islamic theology were just misinterpretations by "crazies"? Being that you admitted to having no knowledge of the topic, I'm just bewildered as to why your first assumption about certain points was that "the crazies" must have it all wrong, rather than fact-checking on your own.[/quote] Is it really that big of a deal that you have to continue to badger her over it? Also, YouTube is generally not "fact checking". Edited February 21, 2009 by Hassan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1787191' date='Feb 21 2009, 03:33 AM']Do you speak Arabic? I really am not trying to trip you up or anything, I am just wondering how much you know what is or is not in the Arabic text, what is or is not implied in the text[/quote] I'm not letting you set up your staw man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [quote name='mortify' post='1787310' date='Feb 21 2009, 12:56 PM']I'm not letting you set up your staw man [/quote] I'm not trying to argue that somehow because you don't speak Arabic you can have no oppinion on this, I am simply wondering how you know the content of the passage in the origional Qur'anic Arabic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1787228' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:02 AM']You can search this topic on You Tube and there are plenty of clips from Arabic-language shows as well as interviews with various Islamic clerics discussing this topic. There is no translation problem. The Koran and Muslim tradition allows a husband to beat his wife. Period. Getting into hair-splitting and semantics over how hard or soft he can beat her is beside the point. He is allowed to resort to physical intimidation and physical punishment to keep her in line.[/quote] I'm not defending the teaching-as I've said regardless of the severity of the beating a husband is allowed to give it is categorically wrong. I'm just saying that I know there is a discussion amongst some western Islamic scholars as to whether or not the word for "beat" truly means that, there are some who say the word means "to separate from" (the etymology is something like hitting to cut open a fruit that splits apart). I realize most don't take it this way, I'm saying that translation is a factor as I know from studying [i]other[/i] languages and it is possible that the original intent was misinterpreted. I don't know that it was, I'm just throwing it out there. -Katie Edited February 21, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1787229' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:07 AM']That's my point, Katie. You said "I thought". Why would you just make some assumption in your mind that certain points in Islamic theology were just misinterpretations by "crazies"? Being that you admitted to having no knowledge of the topic, I'm just bewildered as to why your first assumption about certain points was that "the crazies" must have it all wrong, rather than fact-checking on your own.[/quote] Well, because I've known a few Muslims and have never seen anything to lead me to believe that wife beating was a common practice. Also, I am admittedly no great Muslim scholar but I'm not completely ignorant on the subject. We see many fundamentalists in Christianity who misinterpret teachings, so I was giving a religion I didn't have a thorough knowledge of the benefit of the doubt. I still don't know who you were referring to when you said I should listen to people who know more than me? I wasn't refusing to listen to anyone, I was saying I had learned something I previously didn't know. -Katie Edited February 21, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1787379' date='Feb 21 2009, 03:24 PM']Well, because I've known a few Muslims and have never seen anything to lead me to believe that wife beating was a common practice.[/quote] For one, it is illegal in this country to physically abuse or harass one's spouse. Secondly, probably the Muslims you have known have the decency and common sense to ignore that particular Koranic mandate. Unfortunately, there are millions of Muslims elsewhere who use this mandate as a common household practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1787262' date='Feb 21 2009, 12:01 PM']Is it really that big of a deal that you have to continue to badger her over it? Also, YouTube is generally not "fact checking".[/quote] Nowhere did I state that You Tube is fact-checking. People are allowed to express two different but related ideas in one paragraph, Hassan. And you're a fine one to talk about badgering people. Pot, meet kettle: you're both black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1787331' date='Feb 21 2009, 01:42 PM']I'm not trying to argue that somehow because you don't speak Arabic you can have no oppinion on this, I am simply wondering how you know the content of the passage in the origional Qur'anic Arabic.[/quote] I have to rely on translators who are familiar with Quranic Arabic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1787531' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:16 PM']Nowhere did I state that You Tube is fact-checking. People are allowed to express two different but related ideas in one paragraph, Hassan. And you're a fine one to talk about badgering people. Pot, meet kettle: you're both black.[/quote] I didn't say one should not badger people, I simply asked if this was really something important enough that you had to badger her over it. Constantly grinding her over a mistake she made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1787530' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:14 PM']For one, it is illegal in this country to physically abuse or harass one's spouse. Secondly, probably the Muslims you have known have the decency and common sense to ignore that particular Koranic mandate. Unfortunately, there are millions of Muslims elsewhere who use this mandate as a common household practice.[/quote] That's horrible. Unfortunately, there are Christians who use Biblical passages to justify spousal and child abuse as well. That was formative in my original thinking; like I said, I was giving the religion which I admittedly don't know all the ins and outs of the benefit of the doubt because I often hear people bemoaning the horrible things Christians do, when in fact those Christians are crazily misinterpreting things. I am categorically against any mandate that includes violence or demaning another person; however I was trying to listen to the conversation and judge for myself how, when and by whom this mandate is interpreted since apparently not all Muslims consider it a mandate. -Katie Edited February 22, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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