Owner Of Muslim Relations Tv Network Beheads Wife

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782878' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:18 PM']I was not doubting the veracity of some such Islamic code allowing marital abuse. I can claim no expertise on Islam and thus I have no reason to question your account. Rather, I was pointing out what seemed like a tasteless ploy to make light of the situation in suggesting that the crime was somehow religiously motivated (however misplaced), or somehow loosely based on a Islamic moral code.[/quote]

Yeah, I think there was a lot more at work here than religious motivations. This guy went out of his way to make an effort to show a more moderate side of Islam to the community-like I said, his network, from what I watched, seemed quite modern (in context of way we usually view Islamic culture), women often newscasters, etc-it would seem to me that it would be out of character for him to purposefully use the tenants of Islam to justify himself-I mean, putting aside the obvious horror of this murder for a moment-it would have been bad press, inconsistent with his desires to show the world a "good" side of Islam. From what I know of this crime, it seems like a case of criminally insane rage. Could there have been religious motivation? Maybe, I can't say definitively. But, from what I know it wouldn't seem that it was the case. -Katie

Edited February 17, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782864' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:11 PM']I didn't know that was truly permitted in Islam-I thought it was some crazies running with some verse in the Koran much like some crazy Christians do with the Bible. The fact that it is actually kind of a mainstream teaching is sickening. That said, I don't truly have any concept of how many practicing Muslims interpret the passage to mean it's OK to beat your wife or take it in some kind of symbolic thing like we do with some of the more difficult parts of the OT. Although, based on what I usually hear going on in the Islamic world (at least in the Middle East/southern Europe), it seems like most people do take it literally...nasty -Katie[/quote]

Some do take it to be a symbolic act. I agree that the fact that the Qur'an contains it is troubling, although the context suggusts it is intended to set limits on punishment not impose it. That is to say that if you have taken X steps then you will be permitted to hit your wife with a small stick or toothbrush withing these confines. Unfortunatly Islamic fiqh really has no way to fully discharge things that were intended to be curbed but permitted. I would not blame domestic abuse in Muslim countries, for the most part, on this (although it is certianly legitimate to question the morality of any such allowance). I would suspect, but cannot say for sure, that most instances of such abuse do not follow the legal process but exist independnt as a culturally accecpted way of running the house.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1782888' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:26 PM']Some do take it to be a symbolic act. I agree that the fact that the Qur'an contains it is troubling, although the context suggusts it is intended to set limits on punishment not impose it. That is to say that if you have taken X steps then you will be permitted to hit your wife with a small stick or toothbrush withing these confines. Unfortunatly Islamic fiqh really has no way to fully discharge things that were intended to be curbed but permitted. I would not blame domestic abuse in Muslim countries, for the most part, on this (although it is certianly legitimate to question the morality of any such allowance). I would suspect, but cannot say for sure, that most instances of such abuse do not follow the legal process but exist independnt as a culturally accecpted way of running the house.[/quote]

Probably true that most cases of domestic violence in the Islamic culture don't follow the Koran per se when it comes to punishment in terms of specific goals, steps having already been taken, etc but honestly, the fact that it's even there is an issue. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782891' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:30 PM']Probably true that most cases of domestic violence in the Islamic culture don't follow the Koran per se when it comes to punishment in terms of specific goals, steps having already been taken, etc but honestly, the fact that it's even there is an issue. -Katie[/quote]


I agree.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1782885' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:24 PM']This was a man who told us that he was about peace and understanding. He told us that his religion wasn't about violence. Yet he committed this horrific act. When a guy on a bus outside Winnipeg chopped off another passenger's head off, everyone immediately assumed he had schizophrenia. When a Muslim man does the same, we immediately assume it was motivated by his religion. Guys kill their wives/girlfriends all the time, more than we know, but most of the time when it happens we don't think it was motivated by their religion.

When you are in a position of authority, elected to an office, in a high profile job, or as in this case, someone who puts themselves out there as an example of the true way their religion should be viewed, then they are held to higher levels of expectations. The clergy abuse scandal wasn't just about how horrible any kind of abuse is, it went to a higher level because priests are expected to be better than the rest of us, unfair as that may seem, same with teachers or doctors who get caught doing stuff. This man voluntarily placed himself in a position as and example, and now by his actions, he has hurt the perceptions he said he was trying to change. It may not be fair, but it just is.[/quote]

Too true-I'm wondering how the Muslim community here will respond to this. I do have a minimal tie to the Islamic community here-my cousin's boyfriend/father of her child is Muslim, though I don't really see him often. To be honest, their relationship has raised some concerns with me over how women are viewed/treated by his culture (including religion). Then again, I can't say how much of a factor religion is in his particular case, I know he doesnt' really practice very often.-Katie

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782883' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:22 PM']Murder, abortion, euthanasia, spouse abuse, etc., are all tasteless things, but that should not keep us from speaking the truth about those things.[/quote]

Speaking the truth despite your obvious attempts at obfuscation? Hmm...

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782895' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:34 PM']Too true-I'm wondering how the Muslim community here will respond to this. I do have a minimal tie to the Islamic community here-my cousin's boyfriend/father of her child is Muslim, though I don't really see him often. To be honest, their relationship has raised some concerns with me over how women are viewed/treated by his culture (including religion). Then again, I can't say how much of a factor religion is in his particular case, I know he doesnt' really practice very often.-Katie[/quote]


If he had a child out of wedlock with a woman than he is probably not going to scan thousand page books by Islamic scholars on marriage regulations to resolve problems in his marriage.

That does not mean he is or is not a good guy, but I would be more concerned looking to warning signs of abuse than sharia. If it is a concern I'm sure you could find some material on line. I don't know if that helps any.,

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1782899' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:38 PM']If he had a child out of wedlock with a woman than he is probably not going to scan thousand page books by Islamic scholars on marriage regulations to resolve problems in his marriage.

That does not mean he is or is not a good guy, but I would be more concerned looking to warning signs of abuse than sharia. If it is a concern I'm sure you could find some material on line. I don't know if that helps any.,[/quote]

Yes, I don't think he's any religious scholar (though he does abstain from pork and has made some attempts to convert her to Islam, though she says he's not pushy about it). I guess I'm thinking more in terms of culture (he's from Yemen, there is a farily decent sized Yemeni culture here) but I'm also wondering how much of culture is influenced directly by religion. I don't think their relationship seems abusive, but I don't think he really treats her with true respect...he sort of comes and goes as he pleases and he went away back to Yemen for 9 months when she was pregnant... but I don't want to judge an entire culture, even local, by one person's actions. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782878' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:18 PM']I was not doubting the veracity of some such Islamic code allowing marital abuse. I can claim no expertise on Islam and thus I have no reason to question your account. Rather, I was pointing out what seemed like a tasteless ploy to make light of the situation in suggesting that the crime was somehow religiously motivated (however misplaced), or somehow loosely based on a Islamic moral code.[/quote]

I didn't catch that but it could well be. I do wonder why this is considered a religiously motivated crime in any sense. Most arguments over "correction" in Islamic marriages that I know of are about tht verse and whether it is discussing a symbolic gesture with a tooth brush or something else. I have never heard anything that would suggust this is even almost near the ball park of what is, n the extreme, allowed. I mean the verse in Cow is, as far as I know, a guide to the most extreme form the actions can take. The simply fact that beheading was involved and this man is Muslim means little more in my eyes, than if a Catholic man lit someone on fire with respect to religious motivations. Jan Hus aside if I turned on the TV tomorrow to see that a Catholic man had set his wife ablaze my first thought would be this is obviously a disturbed man, not assume it was a religiously motivated crime.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1782906' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:48 PM']I didn't catch that but it could well be. I do wonder why this is considered a religiously motivated crime in any sense. Most arguments over "correction" in Islamic marriages that I know of are about tht verse and whether it is discussing a symbolic gesture with a tooth brush or something else. I have never heard anything that would suggust this is even almost near the ball park of what is, n the extreme, allowed. I mean the verse in Cow is, as far as I know, a guide to the most extreme form the actions can take. The simply fact that beheading was involved and this man is Muslim means little more in my eyes, than if a Catholic man lit someone on fire with respect to religious motivations. Jan Hus aside if I turned on the TV tomorrow to see that a Catholic man had set his wife ablaze my first thought would be this is obviously a disturbed man, not assume it was a religiously motivated crime.[/quote]

Well, you're right that we shouldn't assume it was religiously motivated (I personally doubt it) but to be fair he did put himself out there as a prominent person, he represented the Islamic community to many people so I don't think it's entirely illogical for someone to wonder if his crimes were in any way religiously motivated. Just like if a priest killed someone, I'd probably wonder if he was using religion to justify himself. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782898' date='Feb 16 2009, 05:37 PM']Speaking the truth despite your obvious attempts at obfuscation? Hmm...[/quote]
That you took offense at a statement of fact is your problem.

[mortify]

Re Apotheon and Islamic beating of women

[color="#0000FF"][size=3]"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. [b]As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and [u]scourge[/u] them.[/b] Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. [/size][/color]
[b]Quran: Sura 4 verse 34[/b]


Some translators try to downplay the scourging by manipulating the verse. Note the added words (emphasized by black font) in Yusuf Ali's translation, *none* of which are part of the original text:
[color="#0000FF"][b]
"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them [color="#000000"](first)[/color], [color="#000000"](Next)[/color], refuse to share their beds, [color="#000000"](And last)[/color] beat them [color="#000000"](lightly)[/color]...[/b][/color]


And as for the stipulation to beat women with a [i]miswak[/i] (a branch used to brush teeth) I think that's nothing more than Islamic apologetics trying to downplay the verse as well.

Edited February 17, 2009 by mortify

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='mortify' post='1782954' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:20 PM']And as for the stipulation to beat women with a [i]miswak[/i] (a branch used to brush teeth) I think that's nothing more than Islamic apologetics trying to downplay the verse as well.[/quote]

It would be wrong anyway...-Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1782954' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:20 PM']Re Apotheon and Islamic beating of women

[color="#0000FF"][size=3]"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. [b]As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and [u]scourge[/u] them.[/b] Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. [/size][/color]
[b]Quran: Sura 4 verse 34[/b]


Some translators try to downplay the scourging by manipulating the verse. Note the added words (emphasized by black font) in Yusuf Ali's translation, *none* of which are part of the original text:
[color="#0000FF"][b]
"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them [color="#000000"](first)[/color], [color="#000000"](Next)[/color], refuse to share their beds, [color="#000000"](And last)[/color] beat them [color="#000000"](lightly)[/color]...[/b][/color][/quote]

Do you speak Arabic?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782925' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:58 PM']That you took offense at a statement of fact is your problem.[/quote]

I said it was tasteless to make light of someone's murder, which is a statement of fact. Maybe we shoud start making new threads everytime a Christian commits a crime and then we can deduce that the Christian religion is consequently evil. That kind of robust reasoning is irrefutable, after all.