The Finer Points On Cohabitation

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1783146' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:51 PM']First, a question: I get that cohabitation isn't the wisest decision for many reasons. But let's say that my boyfriend comes to visit me--as he's planning to--and he spend the night in my apartment. Would that be sinful? We both have every intention to be chaste, and given that both of us are college students with bills to pay, blowing precious money on a hotel for him seems wasteful.[/quote]

First, intentions don't mean anything if the situation isn't conducive to fulfilling your intention. A couple could fully intend on having sex, but due to sleeping in the living room of their parent's house, maybe that ain't gonna happen. Just be sure you're sleeping in separate rooms. But be aware that the more frequently he's in the next room, the easier it'll eventually be to cross other boundaries that you didn't intend to cross. We are aware of this stuff when we are thinking with a straight mind.


[quote name='MissyP89' post='1783146' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:51 PM']Then what is it, if not testing the waters to see if someone is a suitable spouse?[/quote]

I think his point is moving in together and essentially living like you are married without taking marriage vows is not what dating is about. If you want my two cents about it: we tend to take dating too seriously and marriage not seriously enough.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783209' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:05 AM']rumors are assumed to be true until it turns into fact. like someone tells one of their friends they think such and such are sleeping together because they always see them with each other. next thing you know it turns into fact that such and such are sleeping together. cause the next time the rumor is spread it is no longer "I think", it because "I know such and such are sleeping together because sam knows for sure and he told me." thus creating scandel.[/quote]

No, the scandal results when another Christian couple decides premarital sex is acceptable because this other Christian couple is doing it. Scandal is leading a brother or sister away from Christ or otherwise into sin through [i]your own[/i] actions -- not word of mouth through third parties. Scandal can be caused without rumor ever entering the picture.

If I'm out on a Friday night and encourage a friend to drink more than I know they can handle, thus leading them into sin, that's creating a scandal without anyone else yackin' their fool head off about it.

Edited February 17, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783384' date='Feb 17 2009, 10:57 AM']No, the scandal results when another Christian couple decides premarital sex is acceptable because this other Christian couple is doing it. Scandal is leading a brother or sister away from Christ or otherwise into sin through [i]your own[/i] actions -- not word of mouth through third parties. Scandal can be caused without rumor ever entering the picture.

If I'm out on a Friday night and encourage a friend to drink more than I know they can handle, thus leading them into sin, that's creating a scandal without anyone else yackin' their fool head off about it.[/quote]

scandel can happen without rumors but it can also happen with rumors. i can be out with friends and tell them that i am pretty sure that harry and jill are sleeping together because they are always together at his place. the group of my friends then tell there friends the story but instead of saying they said I think, they say havok told me that ill and harry are sleeping together. that group of friends assumes its ok for catholics to sleep together before marriage because harry and jill do it and they are hardcore catholics. thus creating scandel.

just about anything can be made into scandel, which is why i have a problem with us worring about it.

also how can you say rumors can not be turned into scandel but then say living together before marriage can be considered scandel because people assume two young people are having sex, even when your not? its the same exact thing. people assume one thing about you, turn it into rumors and thus create scandel.

also what is considered scandel to someone is not considered scandel to another. so people my grand parents age consider any kissing in public to be very scandelous. to avoid scandel then should we NEVER kiss anyone in public. and i am not just talking about making oput, i am talking about any kind of kissing. at what point do we consider this scandel ok and not others? since runmors can turn into scandel, its nearly impossible to avoid.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1782843' date='Feb 16 2009, 07:01 PM']i have a problem with the whole scandel aspect of it, because anything you do with the opposite sex can be considered scandel to someone. i mean if a single man has his girlfriend come over every night and even if she leaves that evening, many people will assume they are having sex since they are that age and they are alone in the apartment/house.[/quote]

This sort of scandal can be avoided. If the single man lives in an apartment, having his girlfriend come over at 6pm for dinner and leave at 9-10pm (either alone or with him, perhaps out to a movie) is appropriate. If the couple is still concerned about scandal, the girlfriend should only come over in the day, say for lunch. (After all, many people associate intimacy with the evening, not the afternoon.) It [b]also[/b] depends on how the couple dresses and acts. If you see a modestly dressed couple coming and going from one party's apartment, who behaves maturely, neighbors are most likely going to assume only positive things. The couple can also invite the neighbors across the hall over for dinner. I am sure once the neighbors get to know the couple they will know nothing immoral is happening behind closed doors. They can invite neighbors to Church. etc.

Now if the man has a house, and the girlfriend comes over, there are a bunch of different things the couple can do to promote their chaste relationship:
1. If the house is two floors, and this is the evening, keep the upstairs lights off so neighbors know you are not up there but down in the kitchen.
2. During the day, if it is warm out, have lunch on the front or back porch.
3. Do not try to hide the car your s/o drove over, this may arouse suspicion.

Maybe that all sounds strict and ridiculous, but if you are concerned with scandal you can do a lot to avoid it without ruining your chaste date night.

[quote]i mean two male rommates who profess being catholic could be viewed as scandoulus if they are never seen with girlfriends because neighbors could assume they are gay and catholic.[/quote]

I hardly doubt this. In our society, stereotyping is all over the place. If the two men do not dress or "act" gay then there will be no speculation.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1783446' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:35 PM']This sort of scandal can be avoided. If the single man lives in an apartment, having his girlfriend come over at 6pm for dinner and leave at 9-10pm (either alone or with him, perhaps out to a movie) is appropriate. If the couple is still concerned about scandal, the girlfriend should only come over in the day, say for lunch. (After all, many people associate intimacy with the evening, not the afternoon.) It [b]also[/b] depends on how the couple dresses and acts. If you see a modestly dressed couple coming and going from one party's apartment, who behaves maturely, neighbors are most likely going to assume only positive things. The couple can also invite the neighbors across the hall over for dinner. I am sure once the neighbors get to know the couple they will know nothing immoral is happening behind closed doors. They can invite neighbors to Church. etc.

Now if the man has a house, and the girlfriend comes over, there are a bunch of different things the couple can do to promote their chaste relationship:
1. If the house is two floors, and this is the evening, keep the upstairs lights off so neighbors know you are not up there but down in the kitchen.
2. During the day, if it is warm out, have lunch on the front or back porch.
3. Do not try to hide the car your s/o drove over, this may arouse suspicion.

Maybe that all sounds strict and ridiculous, but if you are concerned with scandal you can do a lot to avoid it without ruining your chaste date night.



I hardly doubt this. In our society, stereotyping is all over the place. If the two men do not dress or "act" gay then there will be no speculation.[/quote]


that's not being strict, thats accomidating everyone else in the world before your girlfriend/boyfriend.

1. you really think because people don't see the bedroom lights on people will assume they are not having sex? they assume all young men and women are all trying to get laid.

2. should the couple have to spend every minute out side during the summer? as soon as the go inside, the rumors can start and will start if one of the neighbors does not like them. you can't get everyone to like you in this world. all it takes is one person to not like you in your neighborhood and let the rumor fly. i have seen it in every neighborhood/apaertment i have lived in since a child.

3. not hiding the car will in fact start more rumors because they always see such and such's car over at such and such's house.

4. leaving by 9-10 is still considered night time and people could still assume they are sleeping together.

5. and what if the couple works during the day? how do they accomidate this plan? do they never spend time alone?

6. The neighbors can just assume things no matter what they see. i mean how many times do we happen to see something in public and we assume something that is not true?

in this more secular society, everyone assumes everyone s out to sleep with everyone. people assume everything is about sex. so they will instanly assume a couple who is together often at each other's place are having sex. heck, rumors are started just because people don't like other's. sally can start a rumor about jill just because she doesn't like her. soon the rumor turns into fact in the public eye. i mean just look at somewhere in the inner city. let's say a young man lives in a drug ridden neighborhood. just by living in the neighborhood people will assume he is a drug dealer. the point is anything can be turned into scandel. anyone can start a rumor and it can turn into fact in the public eye.

also another example, there is a guy at my work who talks with a lisp. just due to tat everyone assumes he is gay. the problem is these assumtions have turned into fact and now people no longer think he is gay, people say they KNOW he is gay.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']scandel can happen without rumors but it can also happen with rumors. i can be out with friends and tell them that i am pretty sure that harry and jill are sleeping together because they are always together at his place. the group of my friends then tell there friends the story but instead of saying they said I think, they say havok told me that ill and harry are sleeping together. that group of friends assumes its ok for catholics to sleep together before marriage because harry and jill do it and they are hardcore catholics. thus creating scandel.[/quote]

Yes, you are right that rumor quickly leads into scandal. That's why it's a sin.

Of course, nobody spreads rumors like a bunch of church-going Catholics. That's part of the reason I select my church-going friends more carefully than my secular friends. But I digress...

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']just about anything can be made into scandel, which is why i have a problem with us worring about it.[/quote]

There's no need to worry about it. This is simple: be responsible for yourself and for your friends. It's fine if you can go out for a few beers without going to far. If your brother can't, let him be. Refuse to think more highly of yourself or look down on him, or push him to have a few drinks when you know he won't stop.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']also how can you say rumors can not be turned into scandel but then say living together before marriage can be considered scandel because people assume two young people are having sex, even when your not? its the same exact thing. people assume one thing about you, turn it into rumors and thus create scandel.[/quote]

I never said rumors cannot be turned into scandal. They are obviously related, but they are distinct from each other and one can happen without the other. Cohabitating is simply irresponsible and unwise for anyone, especially Christians, even if it is chaste. The main reason it's irresponsible and unwise is that few cohabitating couples will remain chaste for long. The reason for this is people like to have sex, especially with people they are attracted to (i.e. the person they are dating). What part that doesn't make sense?

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']also what is considered scandel to someone is not considered scandel to another. so people my grand parents age consider any kissing in public to be very scandelous. to avoid scandel then should we NEVER kiss anyone in public. and i am not just talking about making oput, i am talking about any kind of kissing. at what point do we consider this scandel ok and not others? since runmors can turn into scandel, its nearly impossible to avoid.[/quote]

That's a grey area... some people are more sensitive about PDA than others, and it's different among various cultures too. Use your best judgement. This is why we need to develop our conscience and grow in wisdom and virtue, and much of that involves learning from mistakes.

[Aloysius]

I suppose I'm just being ignored... the fact of the matter is that it is wrong to try out marriage while dating.

on the scandal issue, living together is inherently a sign of marriage in our culture. it is not at all unfounded to presume those living together are living in sin and everyone ought to consider an unmarried couple that lives together to be living in sin. it SHOULD be presumed, it SHOULD be discouraged; because it is a blurring of the distinction of what can be done within and without marriage, a destruction of the different state of life created by the bond of matrimony, and it creates an inherent occassion of sin for the people.

it is my opinion that priests ought to refuse to marry those who are living together unless they take a period to live seperately. in addition, I would not (unless by family obligations this would be too ridiculous) attend the marriage of two people who were living together, and I would assume it to be a sham marriage unless proven otherwise. the scandal is inherent to cohabitation; and it is NOT acceptable for Catholics to cohabitate before marriage; it is in and of itself unchaste even if there is no sexual activity whatsoever.

[Aloysius]

In any event, don't listen to me; listen to the representatives of Christ on earth. This is not a grey area that Catholics are free to disagree on, the pastors and bishops of Christ's Church have commanded against it

this is what the bishops of my part of the world have to say about it:
USCCB: [url="http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabitation.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabitation.shtml[/url]
Pennsylvania: [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=407"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=407[/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1783446' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:35 PM']This sort of scandal can be avoided. If the single man lives in an apartment, having his girlfriend come over at 6pm for dinner and leave at 9-10pm (either alone or with him, perhaps out to a movie) is appropriate. If the couple is still concerned about scandal, the girlfriend should only come over in the day, say for lunch. (After all, many people associate intimacy with the evening, not the afternoon.) It [b]also[/b] depends on how the couple dresses and acts. If you see a modestly dressed couple coming and going from one party's apartment, who behaves maturely, neighbors are most likely going to assume only positive things. The couple can also invite the neighbors across the hall over for dinner. I am sure once the neighbors get to know the couple they will know nothing immoral is happening behind closed doors. They can invite neighbors to Church. etc.[/quote]

These sure are some nosy neighbors...

The issue isn't worrying about what everything we do looks like to other people. Simply be responsible and wise, looking out for yourself and others at the same time. If my neighbor asked me about what my girlfriend and I had been up to, I'd punch him in the nose sooner than I'd turn out my bedroom light.

We should also keep in mind our ages... what's acceptable for me as a 28-year-old may not be acceptable to someone in college or high school. As we grow older, we have to learn how to make right decisions without all the strict boundaries.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783461' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:52 PM']in this more secular society, everyone assumes everyone s out to sleep with everyone. people assume everything is about sex. so they will instanly assume a couple who is together often at each other's place are having sex.[/quote]

This is where the Church, as a community of Christians, should be different from society. If it isn't, at least find a circle of Christian/Catholic friends who are actually following Christ in the way they live.

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783465' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:54 PM']Yes, you are right that rumor quickly leads into scandal. That's why it's a sin.

Of course, nobody spreads rumors like a bunch of church-going Catholics. That's part of the reason I select my church-going friends more carefully than my secular friends. But I digress...



There's no need to worry about it. This is simple: be responsible for yourself and for your friends. It's fine if you can go out for a few beers without going to far. If your brother can't, let him be. Refuse to think more highly of yourself or look down on him, or push him to have a few drinks when you know he won't stop.



I never said rumors cannot be turned into scandal. They are obviously related, but they are distinct from each other and one can happen without the other. Cohabitating is simply irresponsible and unwise for anyone, especially Christians, even if it is chaste. The main reason it's irresponsible and unwise is that few cohabitating couples will remain chaste for long. The reason for this is people like to have sex, especially with people they are attracted to (i.e. the person they are dating). What part that doesn't make sense?



That's a grey area... some people are more sensitive about PDA than others, and it's different among various cultures too. Use your best judgement. This is why we need to develop our conscience and grow in wisdom and virtue, and much of that involves learning from mistakes.[/quote]


but we are not called to just avoid scandel amoung our friends. so this is where it becomes impossible to avoid scandel since secular society is not thinking along the same lines as christian scoeity.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1783467' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:58 PM']I suppose I'm just being ignored... the fact of the matter is that it is wrong to try out marriage while dating.

on the scandal issue, living together is inherently a sign of marriage in our culture. it is not at all unfounded to presume those living together are living in sin and everyone ought to consider an unmarried couple that lives together to be living in sin. it SHOULD be presumed, it SHOULD be discouraged; because it is a blurring of the distinction of what can be done within and without marriage, a destruction of the different state of life created by the bond of matrimony, and it creates an inherent occassion of sin for the people.

it is my opinion that priests ought to refuse to marry those who are living together unless they take a period to live seperately. in addition, I would not (unless by family obligations this would be too ridiculous) attend the marriage of two people who were living together, and I would assume it to be a sham marriage unless proven otherwise. the scandal is inherent to cohabitation; and it is NOT acceptable for Catholics to cohabitate before marriage; it is in and of itself unchaste even if there is no sexual activity whatsoever.[/quote]


not saying i don't agree but what should a priest do about a couple who has a child. let's says a couple has a child and then later on finds God through the catholic church and decides to get married. should the couple live apart for a time even though they have a child? who gets the child? how fair is it to the child to only see one parent for a certain amount of time. what if the child is a young child who doesn't understand this and only understands that daddy or mommy leave and don't live with me?

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783472' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:07 PM']These sure are some nosy neighbors...

The issue isn't worrying about what everything we do looks like to other people. Simply be responsible and wise, looking out for yourself and others at the same time. If my neighbor asked me about what my girlfriend and I had been up to, I'd punch him in the nose sooner than I'd turn out my bedroom light.

We should also keep in mind our ages... what's acceptable for me as a 28-year-old may not be acceptable to someone in college or high school. As we grow older, we have to learn how to make right decisions without all the strict boundaries.



This is where the Church, as a community of Christians, should be different from society. If it isn't, at least find a circle of Christian/Catholic friends who are actually following Christ in the way they live.[/quote]


that's not the point i am aking. the point people are saying is you should avoid scandel to everyone, not just friends. this is not possible and that's the point i am trying to make.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783477' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:12 PM']but we are not called to just avoid scandel amoung our friends. so this is where it becomes impossible to avoid scandel since secular society is not thinking along the same lines as christian scoeity.[/quote]

I believe you're still talking about other people spreading rumors. Scandal is caused by our own irresponsibilty personally leading another into sin. The things people say about you is rumor, not scandal. I've tried in every post to clarify this difference and I don't know how else to say it. They are two different words and two different things.

Inviting your girlfriend over for dinner is not a scandalous thing in the least. Now, if that's something your friend can't do without crossing their own boundaries, that's fine. But this is just common sense stuff... if your girlfriend is sleeping at your place three nights out of the week, then you're getting into sketchy territory regardless of what's actually happened.

Bottom line is, we can't control what rumors people make about us. We can control our own actions. Avoid the appearance of sin as much as is reasonably possible. Encourage good behavior in those you're around and discourage sinful behavior. That's it.

Edited February 17, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783478' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:16 PM']not saying i don't agree but what should a priest do about a couple who has a child. let's says a couple has a child and then later on finds God through the catholic church and decides to get married. should the couple live apart for a time even though they have a child? who gets the child? how fair is it to the child to only see one parent for a certain amount of time. what if the child is a young child who doesn't understand this and only understands that daddy or mommy leave and don't live with me?[/quote]

He should cut the child in half...

(referencing the Old Testament story, lest anyone thinks I'm just being grotesque )

Edited February 17, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Aloysius]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783478' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:16 PM']not saying i don't agree but what should a priest do about a couple who has a child. let's says a couple has a child and then later on finds God through the catholic church and decides to get married. should the couple live apart for a time even though they have a child? who gets the child? how fair is it to the child to only see one parent for a certain amount of time. what if the child is a young child who doesn't understand this and only understands that daddy or mommy leave and don't live with me?[/quote]
in such an event I believe an exception would be made on the basis that these people had a natural law marriage (especially if they themselves were unbaptized) and ignorant of the truth while living that way... baptized persons may not contract a natural law marriage, of course, and must have the supernatural sacramental marriage; but if they got themselves into that position by ignorance or negligence to their faith to the point where they've produced a child together, the ship has sailed on not blurring the boundaries between unmarried and married life. if those people are willing to repent for what they have done, and of course go to confession so that they will be in a state of grace to recieve the sacrament of matrimony (and of course, stop sleeping together for a time until they are married), it might then be acceptable to allow them to continue to live together for the sake of the child. this would be an extra-ordinary case; the exception and not the rule; and something which in no way justifies doing it when one is not in this situation.