The Finer Points On Cohabitation

[Hilde]

It's possible to vote both yes and no?

[Guest mcdeltatjg]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1782489' date='Feb 16 2009, 02:55 PM']statistically, those who cohabitate before marriage are hugely more likely to divorce. one should avoid doing anything which blurs the distinction between unmarried and married life; life should be markedly different for a couple after marriage than it was before marriage. the more you do things before marriage that ought to be left until after marriage (even if those things are not necessarily sinful in and of themselves), the less special marriage itself becomes. for those who cohabitate and are not chaste before marriage, the wedding is just a formality; even if they just cohabitate it becomes seemingly a formality. the more blurred the line between unmarried and married, the more likely the marriage is to fail.[/quote]

Statistics can be tricky. Generally, couples who do cohabitate are not chaste and don't really care about the rules anyway, including the proscription against divorce...

And also, staunch Catholics who would not cohabitate would likely avoid divorce once they are married, no matter how miserable their marriage is.

I suggested chaste cohabitation might be a good idea because y'all might be able to weed out potential problems and stuff. The goal I had in mind was not to reduce divorce but to reduce miserable marriages.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1782848' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:04 PM']The very word "fall" is contradictory to everything Christ commands us about living according to the Gospel.[/quote]

Come on... This is just semantics! How else can I say "fall in love"?

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1782848' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:04 PM']They shouldn't because dating/courtship and engagement serve the purpose of learning how you fit together as a couple. Most martial problems are actually caused by finances. You think it's any accident that Jesus often preached against divorce and the love of money? When we lay down our lives for our friends, we don't fall into those traps of selfishness and jealousy. No need to live together before getting married... seek after God first.[/quote]

I think their are many things couples should be doing when they're dating in order to see how they fit together as a couple. Living together (chastely) would be a great way to see many things like:
[list]
[*]addiction problems (alcoholism, etc.) and the effect they would have on their marriage: Often, even if the other partner knows about the addiction, they often are in denial of the problems it would create in their marriage until they are already married. I had a stoner roommate before. I knew him before and I knew he was a stoner but I didn't know how much it ran his life before living with him (laziness, anger whenever he's not high, unemployment, etc.)
[*] Domestic task handling - they can see if they are able to get along and share household tasks and keep the house in order, etc. This is the cause of many fights in marriage.
[*] Finances - they don't have to make all their accounts joint at this point but they can see how they can manage paying the bills, etc. and even set up a joint savings account which they each commit to putting money into at regular intervals.
[*] Problem solving - They have much more contact with each other so much more opportunities for conflicts to arise and much more ability to see how they can work through them.
[/list]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1782353' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:22 AM']Even chaste Catholic couples are prone to temptations. I can only imagine what sort of temptations spring up if that couple is living together. Furthermore, even if the couple is chaste, "outsiders" so to speak (i.e. neighbors) may just assume "Oh, those two young people down the hall? Nope, not married...but you know kids these days!" which causes scandal, [b]especially[/b] if the couple says they are Catholics. ("Unmarried Catholics can now live together without being *ahem* married?")[/quote]

I realize that this might be a problem. Interestingly, Muslims take scandal much more seriously for the sake of society. In fact, when they sin, they are not supposed to tell anybody about it, lest people think they can now get away with it... We seem to have much more of a mentality of individualism - i.e. What I do is my business. But to them, ensuring a cohesive society is one of their primary goals. But I digress...

Perhaps straight-up co-habitation can be problematic but are there any opportunities to achieve the above-listed benefits from a learning-experience similar to that of "shacking up" but not quite. Like, if I invite a girl to my family's house for thanksgiving and she stays overnight in her own room, surely that's OK, yes?

Or if they are, say, working together at a summer camp or living in a community like Madonna House or doing missionary work together or something... I mean, some occasion where they live together but not on their own you know... Does anybody have any suggestions?

[LouisvilleFan]

I think we should clarify that a scandal isn't the same as a rumor. What you are all describing is more in the rumor territory... "somebody is doing this and they shouldn't," etc. Scandal is when other people in similar circumstances think it's okay to model their life after yours by following the logic, if Jason gets drunk at a party with his friends, and Jason is a "good" Catholic, then it's okay for anyone else to get drunk at parties with their friends. Acting on that logic causes a scandal because one person's irresponsible behavior has lead another person to the same behavior.

Likewise, some couples who are dating can stay up late watching a movie without gettin' all cute 'n cuddly and putting themselves in a compromising situation, and other couples can't. While everyone needs to be aware of their personal boundaries, we also have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters, so it wouldn't be right to say all couples should be able to watch late night movies or look down on those who aren't able to do that. In short, humility is the key.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:52 PM']Statistics can be tricky. Generally, couples who do cohabitate are not chaste and don't really care about the rules anyway, including the proscription against divorce...

And also, staunch Catholics who would not cohabitate would likely avoid divorce once they are married, no matter how miserable their marriage is.[/quote]

Source on this? I would disagree a bit with you here as I would argue that staunch Catholics would try harder to work things out before looking at divorce. So you really can't say there are a majority of miserable staunch Catholics out as many of them will probably be able to work through their issues.

[quote]I suggested chaste cohabitation might be a good idea because y'all might be able to weed out potential problems and stuff. The goal I had in mind was not to reduce divorce but to reduce miserable marriages.[/quote]

You might reduce divorce but not because their are fewer marriages, rather because their are more people out there who never end up getting married but yet continue to live together. Also how long is this trial offer good for? How long should people live together within your rules before they should be able to decide if they should get married? A week? A month? A year? Longer? This seems to be an ambiguous area and how long can two people in love living together go without doing it?



[quote].........


I think their are many things couples should be doing when they're dating in order to see how they fit together as a couple. Living together (chastely) would be a great way to see many things like:
[list]
[*]addiction problems (alcoholism, etc.) and the effect they would have on their marriage: Often, even if the other partner knows about the addiction, they often are in denial of the problems it would create in their marriage until they are already married. I had a stoner roommate before. I knew him before and I knew he was a stoner but I didn't know how much it ran his life before living with him (laziness, anger whenever he's not high, unemployment, etc.)
[*] Domestic task handling - they can see if they are able to get along and share household tasks and keep the house in order, etc. This is the cause of many fights in marriage.
[*] Finances - they don't have to make all their accounts joint at this point but they can see how they can manage paying the bills, etc. and even set up a joint savings account which they each commit to putting money into at regular intervals.
[*] Problem solving - They have much more contact with each other so much more opportunities for conflicts to arise and much more ability to see how they can work through them.
[/list][/quote]

But all these issues you brought up can be resolved before living together if the couple communicates and talks these things over. You cite the stoner issue however if you are honest with yourself, and you spend a lot of time with your significant other, you will realize something is amiss. Also, no matter how much preparation you do, inevitably, you will have disagreements with your spouse. All relationships go through crises. You listen to any couple who have been married for a significant time period (20 or over, but especially 40), they will not say that it was a perfect 40 years or whatever. What got them through that was that they treated marriage seriously and not as a trial and buy offer or as shareware.

The relationships that last, last because they took the relationship seriously and did not view it as a trial time software product.

[quote]I realize that this might be a problem. Interestingly, Muslims take scandal much more seriously for the sake of society. In fact, when they sin, they are not supposed to tell anybody about it, lest people think they can now get away with it... We seem to have much more of a mentality of individualism - i.e. What I do is my business. But to them, ensuring a cohesive society is one of their primary goals. But I digress...

Perhaps straight-up co-habitation can be problematic but are there any opportunities to achieve the above-listed benefits from a learning-experience similar to that of "shacking up" but not quite. Like, if I invite a girl to my family's house for thanksgiving and she stays overnight in her own room, surely that's OK, yes?

Or if they are, say, working together at a summer camp or living in a community like Madonna House or doing missionary work together or something... I mean, some occasion where they live together but not on their own you know... Does anybody have any suggestions?[/quote]


I think your trying to justify living together before marriage and even if you claim chastity, many will not believe and the tempation will overcome many because it will always be three feet away.



----------------
Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/disturbed/track/land+of+confusion"]Disturbed - Land of Confusion[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[havok579257]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1783107' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:18 PM']Source on this? I would disagree a bit with you here as I would argue that staunch Catholics would try harder to work things out before looking at divorce. So you really can't say there are a majority of miserable staunch Catholics out as many of them will probably be able to work through their issues.



You might reduce divorce but not because their are fewer marriages, rather because their are more people out there who never end up getting married but yet continue to live together. Also how long is this trial offer good for? How long should people live together within your rules before they should be able to decide if they should get married? A week? A month? A year? Longer? This seems to be an ambiguous area and how long can two people in love living together go without doing it?





But all these issues you brought up can be resolved before living together if the couple communicates and talks these things over. You cite the stoner issue however if you are honest with yourself, and you spend a lot of time with your significant other, you will realize something is amiss. Also, no matter how much preparation you do, inevitably, you will have disagreements with your spouse. All relationships go through crises. You listen to any couple who have been married for a significant time period (20 or over, but especially 40), they will not say that it was a perfect 40 years or whatever. What got them through that was that they treated marriage seriously and not as a trial and buy offer or as shareware.

The relationships that last, last because they took the relationship seriously and did not view it as a trial time software product.




I think your trying to justify living together before marriage and even if you claim chastity, many will not believe and the tempation will overcome many because it will always be three feet away.



----------------
Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/disturbed/track/land+of+confusion"]Disturbed - Land of Confusion[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]


no matter how much a couple talks about finances and house work, it will do nothing to prepare them for when they live together with these problems.

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783090' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:58 PM']I think we should clarify that a scandal isn't the same as a rumor. What you are all describing is more in the rumor territory... "somebody is doing this and they shouldn't," etc. Scandal is when other people in similar circumstances think it's okay to model their life after yours by following the logic, if Jason gets drunk at a party with his friends, and Jason is a "good" Catholic, then it's okay for anyone else to get drunk at parties with their friends. Acting on that logic causes a scandal because one person's irresponsible behavior has lead another person to the same behavior.

Likewise, some couples who are dating can stay up late watching a movie without gettin' all cute 'n cuddly and putting themselves in a compromising situation, and other couples can't. While everyone needs to be aware of their personal boundaries, we also have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters, so it wouldn't be right to say all couples should be able to watch late night movies or look down on those who aren't able to do that. In short, humility is the key.[/quote]


rumors can turn into scandel because someone can assume rumors are true(lots of people seem to believe rumors to be true) and thus think since its ok for a catholic to do such and such, its ok for me then. again, scandel can be seen in anything by anyone, whcih is why i have a problem with trying to avoid scandel since its impossible to do.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']Come on... This is just semantics! How else can I say "fall in love"?[/quote]

"This I command you, to love one another." -John 15:17

We choose love, and our Lord commands us to love. It's not something we smack our face into when we weren't looking. Sometimes God will work like that, but we still keep our senses about us and obey God in love.

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']I think their are many things couples should be doing when they're dating in order to see how they fit together as a couple. Living together (chastely) would be a great way to see many things like:
[list]
[*]addiction problems (alcoholism, etc.) and the effect they would have on their marriage: Often, even if the other partner knows about the addiction, they often are in denial of the problems it would create in their marriage until they are already married. I had a stoner roommate before. I knew him before and I knew he was a stoner but I didn't know how much it ran his life before living with him (laziness, anger whenever he's not high, unemployment, etc.)
[*] Domestic task handling - they can see if they are able to get along and share household tasks and keep the house in order, etc. This is the cause of many fights in marriage.
[*] Finances - they don't have to make all their accounts joint at this point but they can see how they can manage paying the bills, etc. and even set up a joint savings account which they each commit to putting money into at regular intervals.
[*] Problem solving - They have much more contact with each other so much more opportunities for conflicts to arise and much more ability to see how they can work through them.
[/list][/quote]

What you're missing is marriage isn't some domestic or legal arrangement like having a roommate or going into business with a partner. Marriage is the joining of man and women into one flesh through a life-giving union. These other things are important to go over, but they are handled just fine through good pre-marriage counseling and the simple practice of virtue. There is no reason for unmarried couples to live like they are married (even if they are chaste) if it can be avoided somehow. It's foolish to invite trouble by flirting with the devil like this. The "secret" to marriage is loving God first, spouse second, and children third. And couples do all three of those by living chastely and separately until they are married. You can't reason your way out of that fact, but you can ignore it and deal with the consequences later.

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']Perhaps straight-up co-habitation can be problematic but are there any opportunities to achieve the above-listed benefits from a learning-experience similar to that of "shacking up" but not quite. Like, if I invite a girl to my family's house for thanksgiving and she stays overnight in her own room, surely that's OK, yes?[/quote]

Yes, that is fine And of course you want to meet each others' families while dating. Nearly all my married friends who are Christians have taken extensive pre-marriage counseling during their engagement so all those details of finances and chores don't hit 'em out of the blue after their honeymoon. But even then, without virtue, no amount of counseling does much good.

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']Or if they are, say, working together at a summer camp or living in a community like Madonna House or doing missionary work together or something... I mean, some occasion where they live together but not on their own you know... Does anybody have any suggestions?[/quote]

One of my old roommates met his wife through a Christian inner-city program called Mission Year where guys and girls lived in a house together. Obviously they had rules about dress codes, sleeping situations, and having a guy present if any girls were home (for safety reasons), etc. Any dating relationships are cut off for the year, so obviously dating within the group is strictly against the rules. Of course, everyone gets to know each other very well and by that point.

I'm sure there are also third order communities. You said community living is very popular in Montreal, so there should be some opportunities there. Summer camps are a good idea. But in the end, the point to keep in mind is that couples are discerning their compatibility and mix of virtues and vices. People who bear the cross of singleness well and give entirely of themselves will make great spouses.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783121' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:29 PM']rumors can turn into scandel because someone can assume rumors are true(lots of people seem to believe rumors to be true) and thus think since its ok for a catholic to do such and such, its ok for me then. again, scandel can be seen in anything by anyone, whcih is why i have a problem with trying to avoid scandel since its impossible to do.[/quote]

The difference is rumors are assumed to be true. Scandal is based on direct observation of another person's lifestyle.

[MissyP89]

First, a question: I get that cohabitation isn't the wisest decision for many reasons. But let's say that my boyfriend comes to visit me--as he's planning to--and he spend the night in my apartment. Would that be sinful? We both have every intention to be chaste, and given that both of us are college students with bills to pay, blowing precious money on a hotel for him seems wasteful.

Second, Aloysius said,

[quote]dating is not play-marriage, dating is not test-marriage...[/quote]

Then what is it, if not testing the waters to see if someone is a suitable spouse?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783117' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:26 PM']no matter how much a couple talks about finances and house work, it will do nothing to prepare them for when they live together with these problems.[/quote]

Ah, so living together in great temptation for an undefined period of time with no commitment is a novel way of solving these issues?

Couples are guaranteed to run into problems, if they don't, then there is no relationship. You seem to act as if by living together before marriage, then they will never argue and get along perfectly. Problems are gauranteed. Not saying some can be avoided before marriage. There are several important financial and social questions that should be evaluated by both parties before marriage to avoid simple bomb issues.

Also, I am going to reiterate that the reason people are married 30+ years is because they treated marriage with respect and were more careful getting married, and were more likely to work through their problems than the generation today.

Today, people have a disagreement, so they divorce. Why do people who divorce once, are more likely to divorce? Does this really have anything to do with simple things like paying bills and housekeeping? Or does it have more to do with they don't want to work through their issues? Or never really knew the other person? Or was it one wanted children and the other wanted sex? I have heard that reason more than once and I don't see living together as solving that one.

Why do people who get divorced seem more likely to get divorced? Do they really overlook the bills and housework multiple times? If the couple really loved each other, the decision of who pays the bills seems hardly the sole problem to totally take a loving relationship and crash in the desert. Something else must also be wrong with the relationship to bring that plane down.

The solution to the high divorce rate is not living together (as that brings in many couples into sin by that many will fall to temptation before marriage), but rather couples do not take marriage seriously in the first place. A.K.A. no-fault divorce.

Now, I realize divorce is called for in some cases, however, I think it is safe to state that there is an unacceptable number of divorces right now and many can be attributed to a lack of respect for marriage.

I believe that the high divorce rate has more to do with contraception and objectifying the relationship to being about sex and personal wants than it is about raising a family and the other person.

----------------
Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/semisonic/track/closing+time"]Semisonic - Closing Time[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Aloysius]

[quote]* Domestic task handling - they can see if they are able to get along and share household tasks and keep the house in order, etc. This is the cause of many fights in marriage.
* Finances - they don't have to make all their accounts joint at this point but they can see how they can manage paying the bills, etc. and even set up a joint savings account which they each commit to putting money into at regular intervals.
* Problem solving - They have much more contact with each other so much more opportunities for conflicts to arise and much more ability to see how they can work through them.[/quote]

NOOOO, these things are the things that ought to pop up in the context of a marriage, with the help of the sacramental grace that goes along with it (before marriage, these things should be talked about, but not yet experienced as you are not supposed to yet experience them). in dating they are to be talked about, but NOT YET LIVED!!! when you live these things out, when you mix your finances together while not being married or live together when not being married, you are DAMAGING your future marriage by blurring the line. you only mix your finances together when you mystically become one flesh, you don't test it out first because then you lose the sense of becoming one flesh because beforehand you already became one financial being, you took the experience of difference in the marriage away.

yes, the statistics are tricky things; however, ask priests who do pre-marital counseling and if it's a good priest they'll likely tell you that cohabitation before marriage even done chastely tends to hurt the marriage.

[quote]Then what is it, if not testing the waters to see if someone is a suitable spouse?[/quote]
it is not testing the waters as in "let's live as if we're married, see how well we fit together, and thus decide whether to get married"; it's testing each other in a whole different manner. but it would be absolutely wrong to treat dating as if it were marriage without the sex; because then you're setting up a potentially dissoluable union which is in all things but sex identical to the union you plan to be indissoluable. you test the waters by finding out what the other thinks about things, what their tastes are and what their plans and future aspirations and values are; how well you interact together and how well you get through arguing and disagreeing... and THEN you take the plunge in state in life that is marriage. blurring the lines is harmful to future marriage.

this reminds me of how Advent is often infused with all sorts of Christmas music and imagery in our culture; I'm always going on about how people need to actively reject doing Christmas things during Advent so that they can more fully experience them in the whole of the Christmas season. most people in our culture ruin their Christmases by having them during advent; and many people in our culture ruin their marriages by acting as if they're married in all things but sex (well, many people include sex in those things).

[havok579257]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1783188' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:42 PM']Ah, so living together in great temptation for an undefined period of time with no commitment is a novel way of solving these issues?

Couples are guaranteed to run into problems, if they don't, then there is no relationship. You seem to act as if by living together before marriage, then they will never argue and get along perfectly. Problems are gauranteed. Not saying some can be avoided before marriage. There are several important financial and social questions that should be evaluated by both parties before marriage to avoid simple bomb issues.

Also, I am going to reiterate that the reason people are married 30+ years is because they treated marriage with respect and were more careful getting married, and were more likely to work through their problems than the generation today.

Today, people have a disagreement, so they divorce. Why do people who divorce once, are more likely to divorce? Does this really have anything to do with simple things like paying bills and housekeeping? Or does it have more to do with they don't want to work through their issues? Or never really knew the other person? Or was it one wanted children and the other wanted sex? I have heard that reason more than once and I don't see living together as solving that one.

Why do people who get divorced seem more likely to get divorced? Do they really overlook the bills and housework multiple times? If the couple really loved each other, the decision of who pays the bills seems hardly the sole problem to totally take a loving relationship and crash in the desert. Something else must also be wrong with the relationship to bring that plane down.

The solution to the high divorce rate is not living together (as that brings in many couples into sin by that many will fall to temptation before marriage), but rather couples do not take marriage seriously in the first place. A.K.A. no-fault divorce.

Now, I realize divorce is called for in some cases, however, I think it is safe to state that there is an unacceptable number of divorces right now and many can be attributed to a lack of respect for marriage.

I believe that the high divorce rate has more to do with contraception and objectifying the relationship to being about sex and personal wants than it is about raising a family and the other person.

----------------
Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/semisonic/track/closing+time"]Semisonic - Closing Time[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]

when did i ever state that you have to live together- unmarried?

[Aloysius]

living together before marriage is absolutely wrong; it does violence to your future marriage pure and simple. the idea of acting as if you're married in all things but sex is a problematic view of the nature of marriage and ostensibly denies the nature of marriage as a sacrament which conveys grace.

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783133' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:42 PM']The difference is rumors are assumed to be true. Scandal is based on direct observation of another person's lifestyle.[/quote]

rumors are assumed to be true until it turns into fact. like someone tells one of their friends they think such and such are sleeping together because they always see them with each other. next thing you know it turns into fact that such and such are sleeping together. cause the next time the rumor is spread it is no longer "I think", it because "I know such and such are sleeping together because sam knows for sure and he told me." thus creating scandel.

[Aloysius]

the act of living together is inherently iconographic of sleeping together. when you do something which culturally indicates sleeping together because of its inherent role in the marital union, you are committing scandal.

I see no response to my discussion of how the boundaries are blurred and thus the marriage is destroyed. this is not just about scandal and near occasions of sin; the sociological effect of couples acting like married couples before marriage is undeniable: the marriage is weakened. always. it's Christmas in Advent, it's Easter in Lent; it might as well be sex before marriage because you're doing something which is proper ONLY to married couples outside of marriage. The Church does not merely ask one to abstain from sex outside of marriage, she asks one to abstain from EVERYTHING that is proper only to marriage when one is not married. cohabitation is absolutely one of those things which is proper only to marriage; there are other things in which a fine line can be drawn; but if you've already adopted the married life (even if you do not include sex) before you are married, you have damaged your marriage and need to repair it by clearing up the social boundaries between your pre-marriage and post-marriage relationship.