The Greek Orthodox Churches

[Apotheoun]

Slappo,

Since Eastern Catholics already revere the individuals he mentioned the poll is rather provocative. But, as you like to point out about my posts, your reading of posts is rather selective and you see only what you want to see.

It is interesting that your most recent post did not address your error as it concerns the ordination married men as priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches in America. The Vatican continues to hold that it is not permitted unless – on a case by case basis – the Eparch who is going to perform the ordination first seeks a dispensation from the curia, even though this "practice" is contrary to our tradition. Why should the Eastern Catholic Churches in America have to contact Rome before ordaining a priest? Actions like this are what will prevent any rapprochement between the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Finally, as far as the original poster's questions are concerned: since the Eastern Catholic Churches venerate the saints his has asked about, it follows that our liturgical practice itself is the answer to his question.

God grant you many years.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1786997' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:22 PM']Oh, and although I have not read the fullness of his posts, I have read many posts under his original screen name as well and am familiar with many of his views.

Also, the priest I have spoken with is Byzantine, so maybe he was referring specifically to the Byzantine rite. This was also as of fall 2007 or spring 2008 so anything since then I am not sure of. I also don't know the extent of what John Paul II told the Eastern Rites to do to receive the dispensation. You haven't denied that the dispensation was offered though.[/quote]
Married priests are a part of our tradition, and we should not have to ask for a dispensation to follow our tradition, any more than Latin Catholics should have to request a dispensation of the Melkite Catholic Patriarch to follow their traditions.

To be frank, the Melkites and the Ukrainians simply ignore Rome on this question and ordain married men without requesting dispensations, and I think that their response to Rome's micro-management on this issue is appropriate. Sadly, the Ruthenian Church, which will probably cease to exist in another 40 years, is too weak to act on its own.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1786997' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:22 PM']Also, the priest I have spoken with is Byzantine, so maybe he was referring specifically to the Byzantine rite. This was also as of fall 2007 or spring 2008 so anything since then I am not sure of. I also don't know the extent of what John Paul II told the Eastern Rites to do to receive the dispensation. You haven't denied that the dispensation was offered though.[/quote]
The "Byzantine rite" is simply a liturgical tradition. The Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, and the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church in America all celebrate the liturgy according to that particular rite.

As an Eastern Catholic I belong to an Eastern Catholic Church, and not to an Eastern rite, which is simply a liturgical system for offering worship to the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit.

[mortify]

Ultimately there is only one true Church.

[tionif]

Watches the slug out between the religions begin.



Which one is right, which one is wrong, who will ever know?

[mortify]

[quote name='tionif' post='1787135' date='Feb 21 2009, 02:05 AM']Which one is right, which one is wrong, who will ever know?[/quote]

Most will find out when they die.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787012' date='Feb 20 2009, 08:32 PM']It is interesting that your most recent post did not address your error as it concerns the ordination married men as priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches in America. The Vatican continues to hold that it is not permitted unless – on a case by case basis – the Eparch who is going to perform the ordination first seeks a dispensation from the curia, even though this "practice" is contrary to our tradition. Why should the Eastern Catholic Churches in America have to contact Rome before ordaining a priest? Actions like this are what will prevent any rapprochement between the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.[/quote]

Sorry I addressed it in an edit, it was something that I forgot to post at first and realized upon re-examining my post.


Why should the Eastern Catholic Churches in America have to contact Rome? This is to my understanding and only second hand knowledge: Because the Magisterium came out with a document that restricted them and they are still under obedience to the magisterium because it isn't the magisterium of the western Church but the Church universal. The document of course should have never restricted them and it is to my understanding (although I could quite possibly be vastly wrong) that the main intention of the document was *not* a restriction on the east and only secondarily did so... but like I said, could quite possibly be wrong on that.

Now to do so however, is disobedience, EVEN though it breaks tradition. It is, one might say, a sort of persecution that the east is currently experiencing from the Church herself, like many saints did.

You still have yet to affirm or deny that there was a dispensation offered by John Paul II. If there was one offered, why was it not accepted? Why did the east not jump on the chance to enter back into the tradition that had been stripped of them?


Apo,
You seem to think that there is a gap between the east and west in the realm of Authority and that the Holy Father does not have the authority to interfere with any matter that pertains to eastern tradition. If the Holy Father does not have the authority to do so, it would seem that he is not the Prince of the Apostles, but rather back to first among equals and that he really only deals with the west. If the Holy Father does have the authority to do so, then would it not be disobedience to break restrictions on ordination of married priests? Is the west better then the east, by no means! The west has sadly lost a lot of it's beauty and become lax in many area's, such as the use of canola oil for a chrism mass, and would have a lot to gain from looking at the east. Is the east better then the west? Of course not. Are the two separate? Yes and no... it is the One Church.

[tionif]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787146' date='Feb 21 2009, 02:16 AM']Most will find out when they die.[/quote]

So, basically, correct me if I am wrong, but when people die and go to hell, they're going to wish they were Catholic, right?



God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and of a sound mind.

Your talk is fear, pure and simple.

You're just like the enviornmentalists who say we have to do something in the next ten years or we're going to die.

Edited February 21, 2009 by tionif

[Slappo]

[quote name='tionif' post='1787179' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:09 PM']So, basically, correct me if I am wrong, but when people die and go to hell, they're going to wish they were Catholic, right?



God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and of a sound mind.

Your talk is fear, pure and simple.

You're just like the enviornmentalists who say we have to do something in the next ten years or we're going to die.[/quote]

...He said nothing about fear...
All he said was that when we die.... we're going to find out who was right. And when people die and go to hell according to Catholicism, that is part of God's mercy, for to give them heaven would be even more painful then hell to those whom do not love God.

It'd be like having to go give an eternal kiss to Aunt Gurta the Slobberer except infinity times worse... (no offense to those who have an aunt named Gurta... or those named Gurta...)

[Hassan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787130' date='Feb 21 2009, 02:00 AM']Ultimately there is only one true Church.[/quote]


yes, a gnostic sect based on kittiology.

Unfortunatly I can't say any more to the unenlightened

[tionif]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1787186' date='Feb 21 2009, 03:19 AM']...He said nothing about fear...
All he said was that when we die.... we're going to find out who was right. And when people die and go to hell according to Catholicism, that is part of God's mercy, for to give them heaven would be even more painful then hell to those whom do not love God.

It'd be like having to go give an eternal kiss to Aunt Gurta the Slobberer except infinity times worse... (no offense to those who have an aunt named Gurta... or those named Gurta...)[/quote]


Ummm.

He didn't say fear, but even what you say is that if you're not Catholic, the one true church, you are going to be sent to Hell by God because you don't belong to that church.

That, of course, is a fear tactic. Do as I say, believe as I believe, or I am going to beaver dam you for not agreeing with me.

Which, of course, goes down to the spirit of fear. Those who don't have the spirit of God will cower in fear, and accept what someone has to say to them - let me tell you how to think, behave, and believe.

Those who have the spirit of God, who live with the spirit of power, love, and a sound mind, find such things humourous to us. I can think for myself, and I can see right through his lies and see the truth of God's love, his grace for all believers, and we will all enjoy heaven.

For mortify, he's the Catholic exclusive club of heaven, and let all the others burn in hell.

The reason I see through him is because I live standing by my little screen name.

[Ziggamafu]

I'm still wrapping my mind around the rejection of the last 14 councils as being ecumenical - and by extension, infallible...and how that is a permissible view.

[Slappo]

[quote name='tionif' post='1787197' date='Feb 20 2009, 11:55 PM']Ummm.

He didn't say fear, but even what you say is that if you're not Catholic, the one true church, you are going to be sent to Hell by God because you don't belong to that church.

That, of course, is a fear tactic. Do as I say, believe as I believe, or I am going to beaver dam you for not agreeing with me.

Which, of course, goes down to the spirit of fear. Those who don't have the spirit of God will cower in fear, and accept what someone has to say to them - let me tell you how to think, behave, and believe.

Those who have the spirit of God, who live with the spirit of power, love, and a sound mind, find such things humourous to us. I can think for myself, and I can see right through his lies and see the truth of God's love, his grace for all believers, and we will all enjoy heaven.

For mortify, he's the Catholic exclusive club of heaven, and let all the others burn in hell.

The reason I see through him is because I live standing by my little screen name.[/quote]

Lol... except Catholic's don't teach that everyone else goes to hell.... you lose.

[mortify]

[quote name='tionif' post='1787197' date='Feb 21 2009, 03:55 AM']For mortify, he's the Catholic exclusive club of heaven, and let all the others burn in hell.[/quote]

You're putting words in my mouth.

[mortify]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1787188' date='Feb 21 2009, 03:28 AM']yes, a gnostic sect based on kittiology.[/quote]

I know you're joking, but the Truth must be visible and so the true Church must also be visible. It can't be a secret society of Gnostics meeting in a basement.