The Greek Orthodox Churches

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1785099' date='Feb 18 2009, 08:58 PM']Turning this into 'East vs. West' is not helpful.[/quote]
I agree, but this thread is in the Debate Table, and it is a poll asking the members of the phorum to vote on whether saints who are part of the Byzantine liturgical calendar should be venerated by Catholics.

In just over two weeks the feast day of one of the saints in this poll (i.e., St. Gregory Palamas on the Second Sunday of Great Fast) will be commemorated in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

[SeaZephyr]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1785127' date='Feb 18 2009, 11:25 PM']I agree, but this thread is in the Debate Table, and it is a poll asking the members of the phorum to vote on whether saints who are part of the Byzantine liturgical calendar should be venerated by Catholics.

In just over two weeks the feast day of one of the saints in this poll (i.e., St. Gregory Palamas on the Second Sunday of Great Fast) will be commemorated in the Eastern Catholic Churches.[/quote]

How does that explain why this [i]should[/i] turn into an "East vs. West" situation?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1785470' date='Feb 19 2009, 01:48 PM']How does that explain why this [i]should[/i] turn into an "East vs. West" situation?[/quote]
As a new member, you seem to be the person with the issue. IF the regulators see problems with threads, we will deal with it. If its personal , take it elsewhere.

[johnnydigit]

at a mission the priest said that a person canonized a saint first and foremost lived a saintly (Catholic) life and is a holy (Catholic) example for us the faithful (Catholic), which i think would include being in good standing with the Church, receiving the Sacraments, not excommunicated, and not a schismatic, etc. the fact of them being in heaven is only secondary. both of course, by the sole authority of the Catholic Church.

given the above, someone in a schismatic sect is not in communion with the Catholic Church, and so are they not holding the keys or authority to bind on earth what is bound in heaven? in this case, i would think their canonization is invalid. that person is not a saint, and possibly not in heaven. afaik their apostolic succession is legit, but what of canonization and dogma?

it's almost as if a protestant church declared a saint - sure they may have lived an exemplary life, but far from canonized a Catholic Saint.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1785470' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:48 AM']How does that explain why this [i]should[/i] turn into an "East vs. West" situation?[/quote]
Rick,

In some sense the point of the thread is to question (and belittle) the Eastern Catholic Churches, because the original poster has a limited understanding of Byzantine doctrinal tradition, while he also makes the mistake of equating the Latin tradition with the Catholic tradition as a whole.

In the final analysis a Phatmass poll is irrelevant as far as the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churches are concerned (just as any other internet poll would be), because Eastern Catholics are going to be faithful their liturgical tradition even if some Latin Catholics don't like it.

God grant you many years.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Apotheoun

[SeaZephyr]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1785516' date='Feb 19 2009, 01:55 PM']As a new member, you seem to be the person with the issue. IF the regulators see problems with threads, we will deal with it. If its personal , take it elsewhere.[/quote]

I seem to be "the person with the issue"? What "issue" would that be? I was merely responding to another poster's post there, and I did not see anything wrong with their post [i]or[/i] mine. I am a bit confused as to why you think that I have a "problem" with this thread. I was attempting to convey that I do not think that this thread should deteriorate into a war between the East and the West, I have no "issue" or "problem" with the thread at all. If expressing my desire for fraternal unity among Catholics and my distaste for infighting among Catholics is a bad thing, let me know. Thanks in advance!

God bless!

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1785964' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:07 PM']Rick,

In some sense the point of the thread is to question (and belittle) the Eastern Catholic Churches, because the original poster has a limited understanding of Byzantine doctrinal tradition, while he also makes the mistake of equating the Latin tradition with the Catholic tradition as a whole.

In the final analysis a Phatmass poll is irrelevant as far as the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churches are concerned (just as any other internet poll would be), because Eastern Catholics are going to be faithful their liturgical tradition even if some Latin Catholics don't like it.

God grant you many years.[/quote]

Steve,

I am slightly confused here, so perhaps you can clear something up for me. Do you feel that having a limited understanding of Eastern Church practice automatically creates a desire to belittle Eastern churches in people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

While I think that you are correct, that the point of the poll is to question Eastern practice, I do not see how that necessarily equates with "belittling". Catholic practices are often questioned, Roman and Byzantine, and while often they are done so by those with a desire to insult us, that is not always the case, even if the question is asked rather clumsily. I think the best thing to do in those situations is to educate the questioner. The person who started the poll may indeed have a confused notion about Catholicism (I don't know), but I don't get that from the poll alone. I just figured they were asking all Catholics, regardless of the particular Church they belonged to, what their opinions were about Photius. However, you know the people on these forums better than I do, so I will concede that my interpretations could be incorrect. I can only go by the poll itself, being new, as cmother was kind enough to remind me about.

As for final analysises, I didn't get the impression that we were supposed to regard phatmass polls or other internet polls as relevant to how we practice as Catholics. Phatmass isn't the Local Ordinary for any of us, as far as I know, and it certainly isn't anyone's Patriarch or the Magisterium. If anyone makes the mistake of thinking that it IS relevant in that way, then they probably need special prayers said for them and a trip to a special hospital. Anyway, [i]all[/i] Catholic should remain faithful to their liturgical traditions, I agree. Its very unfortunate that not all are.

God bless.

Rick

Edited February 20, 2009 by SeaZephyr

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1786163' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:17 PM']Steve,

I am slightly confused here, so perhaps you can clear something up for me. Do you feel that having a limited understanding of Eastern Church practice automatically creates a desire to belittle Eastern churches in people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?[/quote]
Rick,

How long have you been posting at this phorum? Do you know the history of the original poster of this thread? Have you read all the posts he wrote on his old screen name?

Do a little research on the original poster's views, and then get back to me on this particular topic.

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1786163' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:17 PM']While I think that you are correct, that the point of the poll is to question Eastern practice, I do not see how that necessarily equates with "belittling".[/quote]
Once again, do you know the history of the original poster of this thread?

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1786163' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:17 PM']I just figured they were asking all Catholics, regardless of the particular Church they belonged to, what their opinions were about Photius. However, you know the people on these forums better than I do, so I will concede that my interpretations could be incorrect. I can only go by the poll itself, being new, as cmother was kind enough to remind me about.[/quote]
I agree that we are both Catholics, but as you know there is no such thing as a "generic" Catholic. Catholics must canonically belong to particular Churches, whether it is the Latin Church or one of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches. Now, sadly the original poster of this thread has in the past equated being Catholic with being Latin, and – of course – you may not find this notion offensive, but I do, and the point of my posts in this thread has simply been to show that he – for good or ill – does not know what he is talking about when it comes to Byzantine Catholicism.

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1786163' date='Feb 19 2009, 10:17 PM']As for final analysises, I didn't get the impression that we were supposed to regard phatmass polls or other internet polls as relevant to how we practice as Catholics.[/quote]
Rick,

I have not posted polls or threads of any kind that could be deemed offensive by Latin Catholics at this phorum, though I certainly could do so, because from a Byzantine perspective there are things about Latin liturgical traditions that we find odd, and there are also theological formulations (especially Augustinian ones) that we disagree with, because they imply a form of Manichean dualism or other bizarre theological problems.

That said, how would you feel if I posted polls that questioned the status of saints in the Roman Church? Perhaps I should post a poll critical of the spiritual practices of Francis of Assisi, or Theresa of Avila, or of the philosophical views of Thomas Aquinas, with the ultimate end of questioning their status as saints. That might be a good counter-balance to the polls about saints who are liturgically commemorated within my Church, and whose writings are seen as the normative expression of the spiritual and doctrinal tradition of the East. Now of course I do not post those kinds of things here, because – in my opinion – questioning the devotional and liturgical norms of the Latin Church is inappropriate.

To be honest, I consider myself to be a guest at this phorum, which is a Roman Catholic phorum, and not a Byzantine one. In fact the Roman Catholic nature of this phorum was one of the reasons why I resigned as a Phatmass Church Scholar, because I did not want to confuse those who might have a very limited understanding of the differences between the Eastern and Western Churches, and who might take my comments to be a representation of the views of the Phatmass administrator, nor did I want the moderators to feel that they had to defend the things that I say, when they may not coordinate with the Latin understanding of a particular issue.

Nevertheless, should the practices or beliefs of my [i]sui juris[/i] Church be questioned, or if things peculiar to the Latin Church are held up as universal norms when in fact they should not be seen in that way, I will defend my Church's tradition, because I refuse to accept Latinization as inevitable. I will reject anything that requires my Church to abandon its own traditions in favor of Latin practices, which is something that has happened in the past (whether it be the forced abandonment of our liturgical traditions, or the importation of Augustinian or Scholastic theological constructs into the Byzantine doctrinal tradition, or the suppression of married priests, etc.). I am sure that many Roman Catholics are unaware of the fact that these types of things have been done to the Eastern Catholic Churches in the past, and this of course makes Byzantines very sensitive to what Latin Catholics say, especially when they (i.e., the Latins) equate their traditions with universal norms.

It is a sad fact of history that the Ruthenian Church in the United States alone, not counting the other Eastern Catholic Churches, has suffered two major schisms that decimated the number of its communicants because the Latin hierarchy in the United States decided to force Latinizations upon the Rusyns. Let us not forget what the Latin bishops in America said at the end of the 19th century: "The possible loss of a few souls of the Greek rite bears no proportion to the blessings resulting from uniformity of discipline" [Thomas J. Shelley, "Making the Irish Americans," page 578].

That being said, I am thankful that Cardinal Keeler saw fit in 1999 to apologize to the Eastern Catholic Churches on behalf of the Latin hierarchy in America for past intolerance, and for the various Latinizations imposed upon us during the 19th and 20th centuries, Latinizations which caused schisms in our Churches because we were forced to abandon our liturgical and doctrinal patrimony in favor of Latin practices and beliefs.

But alas I do not sense that same spirit of remorse from the original poster of this thread.

God grant you many happy years.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Ziggamafu]

How does an Eastern Catholic keep up to speed on his rite's theological, disciplinary, devotional, and liturgical developments / regulations? Where is all of the information? What would it mean, practically speaking, for a person to shift from the Latin rite to an Eastern rite? Is shifting rites as simple as becoming a member at an Eastern rite parish or is there something more formal involved? Upon becoming an Eastern rite Catholic, do all Western disciplinary / liturgical laws immediately cease to apply to you?

[SeaZephyr]

Steve, its clear that you want me to shut up about all of this, so [i]for now[/i], I will (I have already typed out three different responses but then deleted them before I posted them). I will only point out that I already conceded in my last post that I could be wrong about the original poster's intent, and that I also conceded that you would know more about him than I do. God bless!

Rick

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1786262' date='Feb 20 2009, 07:01 AM']How does an Eastern Catholic keep up to speed on his rite's theological, disciplinary, devotional, and liturgical developments / regulations?[/quote]
The primary way in which an Eastern Catholic "keeps up to speed" with his Church's doctrinal, disciplinary, and spiritual tradition is by going to Church and participating in the Divine Liturgy.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1786262' date='Feb 20 2009, 07:01 AM']Where is all of the information?[/quote]
Information about Byzantine worship is contained in the various liturgical books (e.g., the Typikon, the Liturgikon, the Euchologion, the Triodion, the Pentecostarion, the Menaion, and the Horologion, etc.), which are used in the celebration of the Byzantine liturgy.

As far as Eastern theology is concerned, one should consult the writings of the Greek Fathers, the Holy Hesychastic monks, and one should even consult the writings of the more recent theologians of the Byzantine tradition (both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox), along – of course – with a solid study of the decrees ([i]horoi[/i]) of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1786262' date='Feb 20 2009, 07:01 AM']What would it mean, practically speaking, for a person to shift from the Latin rite to an Eastern rite? Is shifting rites as simple as becoming a member at an Eastern rite parish or is there something more formal involved?[/quote]
Moving from one [i]sui juris[/i] Church to another is more involved than simply registering at a parish, because – as I pointed out in another post in this thread – there is no such thing as being a "generic" Catholic. Every Catholic is canonically connected to a particular Church, and so to change Churches requires that one formally request a transfer from one Church to another, and for the transfer to take effect it must be approved by both the Eastern Catholic Eparch and the Latin Catholic Bishop. Finally, it is important to note that the process for transferring from one [i]sui juris[/i] Church to another [i]sui juris[/i] Church normally takes around three to five years, depending upon the circumstances of the case.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1786262' date='Feb 20 2009, 07:01 AM']Upon becoming an Eastern rite Catholic, do all Western disciplinary / liturgical laws immediately cease to apply to you?[/quote]
Yes, once a man's request for a change of [i]sui juris[/i] Church is approved he is no longer bound by the liturgical and disciplinary canons of his former Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='SeaZephyr' post='1786480' date='Feb 20 2009, 01:22 PM']Steve, its clear that you want me to shut up about all of this, so [i]for now[/i], I will . . .[/quote]
Phatmass is a public phorum, and so you may post as often as you wish.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1786844' date='Feb 20 2009, 06:49 PM']Phatmass is a public phorum, and so you may post as often as you wish.[/quote]

Yes it is a public forum, however when posting in discussion with you, Apo, people often [b]feel[/b] belittled, demeaned, or intimidated. Please note that I put in bold the word feel, as you and I both know that feelings are not the proper means of discovering intent. You might want to be a little more aware of the way some on the phorum might read your writing (I, by no means, question any of your intentions or good will, only the manner in which they some times come across in the eyes of your readers).

SeaZephyr posted quite clearly that he does not know Ressurexi and therefore a huge section of his post could be irrelevant, yet you persisted to correct him on a matter that he was already aware of.

As for the OP. I read through the posts and quite honestly, he doesn't know how Eastern sainthood works and had a question. It is not wrong to question the reverencing of a saint, especially since saints are not doctrinal or dogmatic and therefore not required to be believed by the Church. I know an Eastern Catholic that questions the reverencing of Origen as a saint (apparently the east glorified him? I'm not sure I couldn't find anything on the net) . Since the aforementioned saints were not canonized by the Holy Father, many Latin's which don't know better, don't understand their veneration, especially if that saint is venerated by the Orthodox. Many don't understand the schism with our Orthodox brethren.


As for talking about how much the East has been suppressed from it's traditions, the continued suppression of some of those traditions is their own fault in America. Pope John Paul II said he would remove restrictions from ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Eastern Church if the eastern bishops decided that is what they wanted. They never made a decision and therefore the restriction remains and many Eastern Catholics who seek ordination as married men have to leave the country to do so (information from an Eastern Catholic priest who is one of my best friends dad's, Fr. Kolitsos). Sad? Yes, very... but at this point Rome can no longer be blamed for [b]that[/b] one.

[Apotheoun]

Slappo,

You have read through all of the original poster's posts under both of his screen names? You must have been reading for days, because he has over 5,000 posts under his StThomasMore screen name.

Finally, as far as Pope John Paul II removing restrictions on married priesthood in the Eastern Catholic Churches in America is concerned, your comment is in error, because when the Ruthenian Metropolia sent its particular Church canons to Rome, the Pope rejected the canons permitting married priests, and said that the Metropolia would have to request a specific dispensation every time it wanted to ordain a married man as a presbyter.

God grant you many years.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

Apo,

You seem to read from people's posts what you desire to see them saying, not what they are actually saying. You also seem to choose what you want to respond to, rarely affirming the truth (not denying either of course) that others have stated (in debates, not necessarily other threads) or explaining yourself when questioned personally.

Did I say Ressurexi's question was respectful? Did I say he was seeking a truthful answer? No, I said he had a question, that question being "Should Catholic's revere etc..."

As he does not know the ways of the east, like many Latin's, he is ignorant of of the ways of the east and hopefully learned from your wisdom. Everything past the single sentence about the OP which ends with the word "question" was not referring to Ressurexi, but Latin's in general as he was not the only one in this thread that questioned the veneration of St. Photius et al. Since, as you said, this is a public phorum, more people then just the OP and his views are pertinent to discussion.

God grant you many happy years
Marcus

[Slappo]

Oh, and although I have not read the fullness of his posts, I have read many posts under his original screen name as well and am familiar with many of his views.

Also, the priest I have spoken with is Byzantine, so maybe he was referring specifically to the Byzantine rite. This was also as of fall 2007 or spring 2008 so anything since then I am not sure of. I also don't know the extent of what John Paul II told the Eastern Rites to do to receive the dispensation. You haven't denied that the dispensation was offered though.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Slappo