The Greek Orthodox Churches

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787835' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:24 AM']The answer to that question should be self-evident from my previous posts on the non-ecumenical status of Vatican I. The decrees of Vatican I are not ecumenical, and as a consequence they are not – as Melkite Archbishop Zoghby said – infallible.

As an Eastern Catholic I accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils as binding upon all Christians.[/quote]

I'm just stunned by your answers, had to make sure I was understanding you correctly.

[Aloysius]

[quote]Do you have any idea how those early Pontiffs understood their primacy[/quote]
I don't now have the time to cite you sources, you can research it on your own if you like; but it came down to the Pope being first among equals in regard to the other patriarchs except that he had the final say if/when it was necessary; Popes never had direct governance over Eastern Churches except by being the uniting principal for them. understanding his supreme authority in that sense is essential for synthesizing a first millenium model that doesn't contradict Vaticans I or II.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787836' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:26 PM']BTW I just love how everyone is ignoring me.[/quote]
I'm not ignoring you. I read each and every one of your posts, although I do not choose to respond to everything that you write.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787836' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:26 AM']BTW I just love how everyone is ignoring me.[/quote]
not ignoring you, your input is adding to the conversation even if you are not directly responded to.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787839' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:29 PM']I don't now have the time to cite you sources, you can research it on your own if you like; but it came down to the Pope being first among equals in regard to the other patriarchs except that he had the final say if/when it was necessary; Popes never had direct governance over Eastern Churches except by being the uniting principal for them. understanding his supreme authority in that sense is essential for synthesizing a first millenium model that doesn't contradict Vaticans I or II.[/quote]
I basically agree with your comments (both in this thread and in the one from a few weeks ago), including the comment I have quoted above (except that I would substitute the word "primacy" where you put "supreme authority").

Nevertheless, Vatican I and Vatican II are particular synods of the Roman Church, and are binding only for Latins.

[Aloysius]

haha and it is the issue of the councils that we most disagree on. of course, the discussion between you and I is the type of discussion that could in theory go on these days between two Eastern Catholics, as both positions are present within the Eastern Catholic Churches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787843' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:37 PM']haha and it is the issue of the councils that we most disagree on. of course, the discussion between you and I is the type of discussion that could in theory go on these days between two Eastern Catholics, as both positions are present within the Eastern Catholic Churches.[/quote]
True enough. I have embraced the position of the Melkite Catholic Church, but different Eastern Churches are at different stages in the process of De-Latinization.

[Resurrexi]

There is a point when de-Latinization become de-Catholicization.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787845' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:39 PM']There is a point when de-Latinization become de-Catholicization.[/quote]
I don't share your opinion, and ironically enough for nearly 50 years now the popes have been encouraging the process of De-Latinization.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787848' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:44 AM']I don't share your opinion, and ironically enough for nearly 50 years now the popes have been encouraging the process of De-Latinization.[/quote]

Perhaps they are wrong.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787851' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:47 PM']Perhaps they are wrong.[/quote]
Interesting comment.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787848' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:44 AM']I don't share your opinion, and ironically enough for nearly 50 years now the popes have been encouraging the process of De-Latinization.[/quote]

Yes they have. That is they have been encouraging Eastern Catholics to stop kneeling on Sundays and to put back the iconostases where the altar rails were. These are authentic de-Latinizations. I don't think, however, the Popes have ever (at least not when exercising their teaching office) encouraged the rejection of such divinely revealed dogmas as the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff or the Immaculate Conception.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787853' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:49 AM']Interesting comment.[/quote]

The Holy Spirit protects the Papacy from declaring an error in faith or morals, it doesn't mean they'll govern prudently.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787854' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:51 PM']Yes they have. That is they have been encouraging Eastern Catholics to stop kneeling on Sundays and to put back the iconostases where the altar rails were. These are authentic de-Latinizations. I don't think, however, the Popes have ever (at least not when exercising their teaching office) encouraged the rejection of such divinely revealed dogmas as the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff or the Immaculate Conception.[/quote]
How very Western of you, to neatly compartmentalize everything, but that is not the holistic way in which the Eastern Fathers saw the Christian faith.

For Eastern Christians our prayer, both the words we use and the actions we perform while praying, are all one. Theology and prayer are not two separate things, and so how a man prays manifests his doctrinal beliefs. In other words, the de-Latinization of the Divine Liturgy by its very nature leads to the de-Latinization of theology and spirituality.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787857' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:55 PM']The Holy Spirit protects the Papacy from declaring an error in faith or morals, it doesn't mean they'll govern prudently.[/quote]
I understand the difference, but if my memory serves me, the decrees that you have been defending do not permit you to question the governing actions of the pope, who happens to be your patriarch.