The Greek Orthodox Churches

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787787' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:55 AM']The process of De-Latinization has two primary goals: (1) to restore the doctrinal, spiritual, and liturgical patrimony of the Greek Fathers and saints within the Eastern Catholic Churches; and (2) to show the Eastern Orthodox Churches that it is possible to be truly Eastern and in communion with the Bishop of Rome.[/quote]
I understand that, I simply draw the line of where de-latinization ends and where de-unity with Rome begins in a different place; and as I understand it, the line is drawn in many different places within the Eastern Churches themselves, it's a big issue to be worked out.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787801' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:01 AM']I agree, though in the post-Vatican II de-latinization atmosphere, Eastern Catholicism is hugely split on such issues... how far de-latinization goes is a line that has to be clearly and definitively drawn as Ecumenism with the Eastern Orthodox moves foreward. And though the Melkite Catholic Patriarch may disagree, it is VERY unlikely that Rome will concede on the point of Papal Infallibility. To do so would be to abandon the Roman Church itself and allow it to devolve into chaos; likely causing schisms of epic proportions such that there would scarce be any Catholic parishes or dioceses left in union with Rome... it would be theological doomsday.

Why? Because the entire unity of our Church and the authority of the Pope has been predicated upon this definition of Papal authority. The Pope would lose all ecclesial credibility and the Roman Church would devolve into chaos.

Rome will not give up on Papal Infallibility... though they might leave what the Eastern's must believe about it a bit ambiguous were there to be reunion between East and West.[/quote]

It would also be impossible for the Magisterium to declare papal infallibility non-dogmatic since it would contradict a previous dogmatic decision.

[mortify]

Apparently the Church has become more disunified post Vatican II

[mortify]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787813' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:06 AM']It would also be impossible for the Magisterium to declare papal infallibility non-dogmatic since it would contradict a previous dogmatic decision.[/quote]

For unity to occur the East will have to submit to the Pope, there simply is no other way.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787782' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:53 PM']Do Eastern Catholics believe the Pope is infallible?[/quote]
Since primacy and synodality properly understood are inseparable, I would say that it is not possible for the Pope to act infallibly alone, but only when the entire episcopate acts with him as one.

Governance within the Church should not be confused with the Gentile notion of power over others (cf. Matthew 20:25-28), but should be seen as a service that functions in reciprocity (i.e., in sobernicity), and this is confirmed by the teaching expressed in canon 34 of the [i]Apostolic Constitutions[/i], which states:

[i]The bishops of every country ought to know who is the primate among them, and to esteem him as their head, and not to do any great thing without his consent; but every one to manage only the affairs that belong to his own parish, and the places subject to it. But let him [i.e., the primate] not do anything without the consent of all; for it is by this means there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified by Christ, in the Holy Spirit.[/i]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787817' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:08 AM']For unity to occur the East will have to submit to the Pope, there simply is no other way.[/quote]


I concur

Edited February 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Aloysius]

the Church will require their "submission to Rome" only in the sense of a First Millenium ecclesiological structure, most likely. Rome's push towards unity with the East tends towards them offering to take any possibility of micro-management off the table, so the ecclesiological structure might not be to your liking, mortify, in terms of how you define "submitting"

there is the ecclesiological issue, which I think Rome is not too far from solving, except that it is not well executed in the Eastern Catholic Churches yet; and then there's the doctrinal issues, which even now divide the Eastern Catholic Churches as to where things should go from here and how far de-latinization can go before it becomes de-unity

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787817' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:08 PM']For unity to occur the East will have to submit to the Pope, there simply is no other way.[/quote]
I do not agree, for as the Melkite Catholic Patriarch says: "I am [i]cum Petro[/i] but not [i]sub Petro[/i]. If I were [i]sub Petro[/i], I would be in submission, and I couldn’t have a true frank, sincere, strong and free communion with the Pope. When you embrace a friend, you are not 'below.' You embrace him from the same height, if not it wouldn’t be a true embrace."

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1787820' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:11 AM']Since primacy and synodality properly understood are inseparable, I would say that it is not possible for the Pope to act infallibly alone, but only when the entire episcopate acts with him as one.[/quote]

So you don't accept the dogma of the Pope being infallible when declaring [i]ex cathedra[/i]?

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Orthodox will never accept the concept of Papal Supremacy, but the acceptance of Papal Primacy is another matter altogether.

[Aloysius]

And the Roman Church will never abandon extraordinary Papal infallibility, and therein lies the real impass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787823' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:13 AM']the Church will require their "submission to Rome" only in the sense of a First Millenium ecclesiological structure, most likely. Rome's push towards unity with the East tends towards them offering to take any possibility of micro-management off the table, so the ecclesiological structure might not be to your liking, mortify, in terms of how you define "submitting"

there is the ecclesiological issue, which I think Rome is not too far from solving, except that it is not well executed in the Eastern Catholic Churches yet; and then there's the doctrinal issues, which even now divide the Eastern Catholic Churches as to where things should go from here and how far de-latinization can go before it becomes de-unity[/quote]

In disciplinary matters, a first millennium structure would work fine (excluding canonizations ) as long as it was acknowledged that the Supreme Pontiff "in virtue of his office, enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise." (Codex canonum ecclesiarum orientalium, Can. 43)

But in regards to doctrinal matters, Lumen Gentium 25 applies just as much to the Eastern Churches as it does to the Latin Church.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[mortify]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1787823' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:13 AM']the Church will require their "submission to Rome" only in the sense of a First Millenium ecclesiological structure, most likely. Rome's push towards unity with the East tends towards them offering to take any possibility of micro-management off the table, so the ecclesiological structure might not be to your liking, mortify, in terms of how you define "submitting"[/quote]

Do you have any idea how those early Pontiffs understood their primacy?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1787829' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:17 PM']So you don't accept the dogma of the Pope being infallible when declaring [i]ex cathedra[/i]?[/quote]
The answer to that question should be self-evident from my previous posts on the non-ecumenical status of Vatican I. The decrees of Vatican I are not ecumenical, and as a consequence they are not – as Melkite Archbishop Zoghby said – infallible.

As an Eastern Catholic I accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils as binding upon all Christians.

[Resurrexi]

BTW I just love how everyone is ignoring me.