Protestants

[Livin_the_MASS]

I work with a lot of Protestants at my work. We talk about stuff just like here on Pham.

They always argue this with me about the ONE TRUE CHURCH, I don't understand their argument?

Jesus said to Peter "Upon This Rock [b]I[/b] shall build [b][u]MY CHURCH[/u][/b]."

He didn't say churches or yours or mine He said "[b][u]MY CHURCH[/u][/b]"

I was looking for another Catholic Church in my area in the phone book.

There was like 3 pages of different churches?

2+2=1?

Can't you see it doesn't add up!

God Bless
Peace

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Matthew 16:15-19

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/quote]

[quote]You are Peter is not only a recognition of Peter's more Roman name, but it is a promise of God's work in Peter - Peter is, and will be a rock, and God will transform his naturally extreme character into something solid and reliable
The words [i][b]this rock[/b][/i] have been the source of much controversy; [b]it is best to see them as referring to either Jesus Himself (perhaps Jesus gesturing to Himself as He said this), or as referring to Peter's confession of who Jesus is[/b]


Peter, [b]by His own testimony[/b], did not see himself as the rock on which the church was founded; he says that we are living stones, but Jesus is the cornerstone (1 Peter 2:4-7)

Jesus also offers a promise; the forces of death and darkness can't prevail against or conquer the church; this is a precious promise in the heat of battle - victory is sure

Notice also Jesus makes a clear claim of ownership; He calls us My church - the church belongs to Jesus

Jesus also says that Peter has the keys of the kingdom of heaven; this isn't that he admits people to heaven, but that Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both the Jews (Acts 2:38-39) and the Gentiles (Acts 10:34-44)[/quote]

and this is how all protestant Christians see it...because Christ DID NOT say, you are THE rock I will build my church on...Christ said that upon the statement Peter made...that HE was the Son of God, the Messiah, is THE ROCK that He would build His church on.

[Carson Weber]

Lumberjack,

Check this out:

[url="http://www.catholicoutlook.com/objpope3.html"]http://www.catholicoutlook.com/objpope3.html[/url]

and let me know what you think.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]the lumberjack Posted on Mar 19 2004, 01:02 PM[/quote]



Jesus said "[b]I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life[/b]."

Not the ways, the truths, and the lives?

"[b]I pray that they are One as You and I are One[/b]"

Jn. 17:20-21

"I pray not only for them, [b]but also for those who will believe in me through their word[/b], [b]so that they may all be one[/b], [b][u]as You, Father, are in me and I in You[/b][/u], that they also may be in us, [b][u][i]that the world may believe that you sent me[/b][/u][/i]."


Jesus prayed for unity for His Church, not division!!

God Bless
Peace

Edited March 19, 2004 by Jason

[willguy]

The arguement that Peter's confession was the "rock" on which Jesus built His church is weak at best.

Jesus said "You are Rock, and upon this rock I build my church." Now, you don't have to be an expert to figure out that semantically, the "rock" in both cases would likely be the same. Also, the name Kephas (the Aramaic name that Jesus gave Simon) only exists in one other occurance before Peter, and the name Petros (the Greek equivilent) did not exist before this instance. Therefore, Jesus basically invented the name. It would be like naming your kid "Rock" today, it doesn't make a lot of sense unless there is meaning behind it.
[quote]because Christ DID NOT say, you are THE rock I will build my church on...Christ said that upon the statement Peter made[/quote] What Bible are you reading?

"You are Rock, and upon this Rock I build my church."

Jesus could very easily have said "What you said is the rock I will build my church on" but He didn't. He said Peter is the rock.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 19 2004, 01:11 PM'] Jesus said "[b]I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life[/b]."

Not the ways, the truths, and the lives?

"[b]I pray that they are One as You and I are One[/b]"

Jn. 17:20-21

"I pray not only for them, [b]but also for those who will believe in me through their word[/b], [b]so that they may all be one[/b], [b][u]as You, Father, are in me and I in You[/b][/u], that they also may be in us, [b][u][i]that the world may believe that you sent me[/b][/u][/i]."


Jesus prayed for unity for His Church, not division!!

God Bless
Peace [/quote]
so you're saying that the early church had the unity that you speak of?

is that why Paul and Peter had to STAY writing and travelling to correct their doctrinral errancies?

we're human, we're gonna get it mixed up from time to time...that is why we need the solid brothers and sisters in Christ to keep it grounded right...


-----

and will guy,

you're saying that Peter's confession of Jesus being the Messiah weak? too weak to be the foundation on which Christ built HIS church? I would figure that that was the gospel in itself...Christ is the Son of God, died for sins, resurrected...you know...the foundation of all doctrine?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote](Mar 19 2004, 02:01 PM)so you're saying that the early church had the unity that you speak of?

is that why Paul and Peter had to STAY writing and travelling to correct their doctrinral errancies?

we're human, we're gonna get it mixed up from time to time...that is why we need the solid brothers and sisters in Christ to keep it grounded right...[/quote]

When Jesus Ascended into heaven he said,

Act 1:7-8
[QUOTE]"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalum, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

The Church recieved its seal on Pentecost. The Church did not have problems, it was the people that they preached to that had problems. Jesus picked Judas for a reason, their will be those within the Church who betray. But He also said that the "gates of hell will not prevail against it. God is One, His teaching is One, thats why the Catholic Church has 2000 years of solid doctrine. I don't know what faith you are but I could look it up in a book I have and name the human man that started your doctrine!

God Bless
In Love

[the lumberjack]

[quote]I don't know what faith you are but I could look it up in a book I have and name the human man that started your doctrine![/quote]

yeah, I know you could...their NAMES would be Jesus, Peter, Paul, Mark, etc etc etc...and as for my faith...I am a Christian...no denomination

[quote]The Church recieved its seal on Pentecost. The Church did not have problems, it was the people that they preached to that had problems.[/quote]

so you're saying that THE CHURCH is comprised of MORE than the people who make it up? wait...I thought a CHURCH was a body of believers?

and here's the definition of CHURCH:

[quote]Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon ( i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship.

In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew _kahal_ of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. Nor is this word ever used to denote the inhabitants of a country united in the same profession, as when we say the "Church of England," the "Church of Scotland," etc.

We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament: ( 1.) It is translated "assembly" in the ordinary classical sense ( Act 19:32,39,41).

( 2.) It denotes the whole body of the redeemed, all those whom the Father has given to Christ, the invisible catholic church ( Eph 5:23,25,27,29; Hbr 12:23).

( 3.) A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an ecclesia ( Rom 16:5; Col 4:15).

( 4.) All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church ( Act 13:1); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" ( 1Cr 1:2), "the church at Jerusalem" ( Act 8:1), "the church of Ephesus" ( Rev 2:1), etc.

( 5.) The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world ( 1Cr 15:9; Gal 1:13; Mat 16:18) are the church of Christ.

The church visible "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children." It is called "visible" because its members are known and its assemblies are public. Here there is a mixture of "wheat and chaff," of saints and sinners. "God has commanded his people to organize themselves into distinct visible ecclesiastical communities, with constitutions, laws, and officers, badges, ordinances, and discipline, for the great purpose of giving visibility to his kingdom, of making known the gospel of that kingdom, and of gathering in all its elect subjects. Each one of these distinct organized communities which is faithful to the great King is an integral part of the visible church, and all together constitute the catholic or universal visible church." A credible profession of the true religion constitutes a person a member of this church. This is "the kingdom of heaven," whose character and progress are set forth in the parables recorded in Matt. 13.

The children of all who thus profess the true religion are members of the visible church along with their parents. Children are included in every covenant God ever made with man. They go along with their parents ( Gen 9:9-17; 12:1-3; 17:7; Exd 20:5; Deu 29:10-13). Peter, on the day of Pentecost, at the beginning of the New Testament dispensation, announces the same great principle. "The promise [just as to Abraham and his seed the promises were made] is unto you, and to your children" ( Act 2:38,39). The children of believing parents are "holy", i.e., are "saints", a title which designates the members of the Christian church ( 1Cr 7:14). ( See BAPTISM T0000435.)

The church invisible "consists of the whole number of the elect that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one under Christ, the head thereof." This is a pure society, the church in which Christ dwells. It is the body of Christ. it is called "invisible" because the greater part of those who constitute it are already in heaven or are yet unborn, and also because its members still on earth cannot certainly be distinguished. The qualifications of membership in it are internal and are hidden. It is unseen except by Him who "searches the heart." "The Lord knoweth them that are his" ( 2Ti 2:19).

The church to which the attributes, prerogatives, and promises appertaining to Christ's kingdom belong, is a spiritual body consisting of all true believers, i.e., the church invisible.

( 1.) Its unity. God has ever had only one church on earth. We sometimes speak of the Old Testament Church and of the New Testament church, but they are one and the same. The Old Testament church was not to be changed but enlarged ( Isa 49:13-23; 60:1-14). When the Jews are at length restored, they will not enter a new church, but will be grafted again into "their own olive tree" ( Rom 11:18-24; Eph 2:11-22). The apostles did not set up a new organization. Under their ministry disciples were "added" to the "church" already existing ( Act 2:47).

( 2.) Its universality. It is the "catholic" church; not confined to any particular country or outward organization, but comprehending all believers throughout the whole world.

( 3.) Its perpetuity. It will continue through all ages to the end of the world. It can never be destroyed. It is an "everlasting kindgdom."[/quote]

God is One, His teaching is One....

amen to that.

peace.

[Aloysius]

the rock is many things, but you cannot tear it away from Peter. Peter's teaching that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, revealed not of flesh and blood but from the Heavenly Father, is the rock. this holds true today, our rock that keeps us together is our trust that the successor to St. Peter can speak things not of his own flesh and blood but truths of the Heavenly Father which God intends humanity to know through the spirit in the way Christ said "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. but when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth." we have PETER, ROCK, KEPHA, in the unity that comes from an authoritative apostolic leadership centered around the successor to Simon made Kepha.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]yeah, I know you could...their NAMES would be Jesus, Peter, Paul, Mark, etc etc etc...and as for my faith...I am a Christian...no denomination
[/quote]



Lumberjack, Who interpets Scripture for you. Yourself?

[quote]"Everything to do with the interpretation of Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church, which exercises the divinely conferred communion and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God." (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 12)"[/quote]

This is commentary on Act 8:26-40

Your going off of personal interpration, I go off of over 2000 years of traditon of the Church's teaching. If I don't understand something I can look it up, with the seal of the Church and know that it is sound and Truth!

[the lumberjack]

whenever you have a problem with what I post, you always seem to default to this...please don't.

please, and I repeat, PLEASE, answer what I posted or don't respond to my posts.

point out my errs so that I might learn...don't just say that I err and that the church has all knowledge and experience and years and what not.

thanks.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ
by Fr. William G. Most

Speaking of full membership in the Church, Pius XII, in his Encyclical on the Mystical Body, said it is the society of those who have been baptized, and who profess the faith of Christ, and who are governed by their bishops under the visible head, the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.

The Church came into being when Christ died on the Cross, but it was formally inaugurated on Pentecost, when He sent the Holy Spirit as He had promised. St. Paul speaks of all Christians as members of Christ, so that with Him, they form one Mystical Body (Cf. 1 Cor 12:12-31; Col 1:18; 2:18-20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:19; 4:13). St. Paul did not use the word Mystical. It was developed more recently to bring out the fact that this union is unique, there is no parallel to it. It is not the same as the union of a physical body, nor that of a business corporation.

The Church, the Mystical Body, exists on this earth, and is called the Church militant, because its members struggle against the world, the flesh and the devil. The Church suffering means the souls in Purgatory. The Church triumphant is the Church in heaven. The unity and cooperation of the members of the Church on earth, in Purgatory, in Heaven is also called the Communion of Saints. When St. Paul uses the word "Saints" in opening an Epistle, he does not mean they are morally perfect. He has in mind Hebrew qadosh, which means set aside for God, or coming under the covenant. Being such means of course they are called to moral perfection. But of course, not all have reached it in this world.

The word "Saint" in the modern sense means someone who has been canonized by the Church in recent times, or was accepted as such by the Church in earlier times. If a person is shown to have practiced heroic virtue--beyond what people in general do - in all virtues, the title "Venerable" is given; with two miracles by that one's intercession, the title is "Blessed"; two more miracles can lead to canonization and the title of Saint.[/quote]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from The Basic Catholic Catechism
PART FIVE: The Apostles' Creed IX-XII
Ninth Article: "The Holy Catholic Church; the Communion of Saints"

By William G. Most. © Copyright 1990 by William G. Most

Is this better?
God Bless

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles
67 (?)
(Feast day June 29)

St. Peter is mentioned so often in the New Testament-in the Gospels, in the Acts of the Apostles, and in the Epistles of St. Paul-that we feel we know him better than any other person who figured prominently in the life of the Saviour. In all, his name appears 182 times. We have no knowledge of him prior to his conversion, save that he was a Galilean fisherman, from the village of Bethsaida or Capernaum. There is some evidence for supposing that Peter's brother Andrew and possibly Peter himself were followers of John the Baptist, and were therefore prepared for the appearance of the Messiah in their midst. We picture Peter as a shrewd and simple man, of great power for good, but now and again afflicted by sudden weakness and doubt, at least at the outset of his discipleship. After the death of the Saviour he manifested his primacy among the Apostles by his courage and strength. He was "the Rock" on which the Church was founded. It is perhaps Peter's capacity for growth that makes his story so inspiring to other erring humans. He reached the lowest depths on the night when he denied the Lord, then began the climb upward, to become bishop of Rome, martyr, and, finally, "keeper of the keys of Heaven."

Our first glimpse of Peter comes at the very beginning of Jesus' ministry. While He was walking along the shore of the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon Peter and Andrew, casting a net into the water. When He called to them, "Come, and I will make you fishers of men," they at once dropped their net to follow Him. A little later we learn that they visited the house where Peter's mother-in-law was suffering from a fever, and Jesus cured her. This was the first cure witnessed by Peter, but he was to see many miracles, for he stayed close to Jesus during the two years of His ministry. All the while he was listening, watching, questioning, learning, sometimes failing in perfect faith, but in the end full of strength and thoroughly prepared for his own years of missionary preaching.

Let us recall a few of the Biblical episodes in which Peter appears. We are told that after the miracle of the loaves and fishes, Jesus withdrew to the mountain to pray, and his disciples started to sail home across the Lake of Galilee. Suddenly they saw Him walking on the water, and, according to the account in Matthew, Jesus told them not to be afraid. It was Peter who said, "Lord, if it is Thou, bid me come to Thee over the water." Peter set out confidently, but suddenly grew afraid and began to sink, and Jesus stretched forth His hand to save him, saying, "O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?"

Then we have Peter's dramatic confession of faith, which occurred when Jesus and his followers had reached the villages of Caesarea Philippi. Jesus having asked the question, "Who do men say that I am?" there were various responses. Then Jesus turned to Peter and said, "But who do you say that I am?" and Peter answered firmly, "Thou art the Christ, son of the living God." (Matthew xvi, 13-18; Mark viii, 27-29; Luke ix, 18- 20.) Then Jesus told him that his name would henceforth be Peter. In the Aramaic tongue which Jesus and his disciples spoke, the word was kepha, meaning rock. Jesus concluded with the prophetic words, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock shall be built My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

There seems to be no doubt that Peter was favored among the disciples. He was selected, with James and John, to accompany Jesus to the mountain, the scene of the Transfiguration, to be given a glimpse of His glory, and there heard God pronounce the words, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

After this, the group had gone down to Jerusalem, where Jesus began to prepare his disciples for the approaching end of his ministry on earth. Peter chided Him and could not bring himself to believe that the end was near. When all were gathered for the Last Supper, Peter declared his loyalty and devotion in these words, "Lord, with Thee I am ready to go both to prison and to death." It must have been in deep sorrow that Jesus answered that before cockcrow Peter would deny Him thrice. And as the tragic night unrolled, this prophecy came true. When Jesus was betrayed by Judas as he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was taken by soldiers to the Jewish high priest, Peter followed far behind, and sat half hidden in the courtyard of the temple during the proceedings. Pointed out as one of the disciples, Peter three times denied the accusation. But we know that he was forgiven, and when, after the Ascension, Jesus manifested himself to his disciples, He signaled Peter out, and made him declare three times that he loved Him, paralleling the three times that Peter had denied Him. Finally, Jesus charged Peter, with dramatic brevity, "Feed my sheep." From that time on Peter became the acknowledged and responsible leader of the sect.

It was Peter who took the initiative in selecting a new Apostle in place of Judas, and he who performed the first miracle of healing. A lame beggar asked for money; Peter told him he had none, but in the name of Jesus the Nazarene bade him arise and walk. The beggar did as he was bidden, cured of his lameness. When, about two years after the Ascension, the spread of the new religion brought on the persecutions that culminated in the martyrdom of St. Stephen, many of the converts scattered or went into hiding. The Apostles stood their ground firmly in Jerusalem, where the Jewish temple had become the spearhead of opposition to them. Peter chose to preach in the outlying villages, farther and farther afield. In Samaria, where he preached and performed miracles, he was offered money by Simon Magus, a magician, if he would teach the secret of his occult powers. Peter rebuked the magician sternly, saying, "Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased by money."

With his vigorous outspokenness, Peter inevitably came into conflict with the Jewish authorities, and twice the high priests had him arrested. We are told that he was miraculously freed of his prison chains, and astonished the other Apostles by suddenly appearing back among them. Peter now preached in the seaports of Joppa and Lydda, where he met men of many races, and in Caesarea, where he converted the first Gentile, a man named Cornelius. Realizing that the sect must win its greatest support from Gentiles, Peter helped to shape the early policy towards them. Its growing eminence led to his election as bishop of the see of Antioch. How long he remained there, or how or when he came to Rome, we do not know. The evidence seems to establish the fact that his last years were spent in Rome as bishop. The belief that he suffered martyrdom there during the reign of Nero in the same year as St. Paul is soundly based on the writings of three early Fathers, St. Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian.[1] The only writings by St. Peter which have come down to us are his New Testament Epistles I and II, both of which are thought to have been written from Rome to the Christian converts of Asia Minor. The First Epistle is filled with admonitions to mutual helpfulness, charity, and humility, and in general outlines the duties of Christians in all aspects of life. At its conclusion (I Peter v, 13) Peter sends greetings from "the church which is at Babylon." This is accepted as further evidence that the letter was written from Rome, which in the Jewish usage of the time was called "Babylon." The second Epistle warns against false teachings, speaks of the Second Coming of the Lord, and ends with the beautiful doxology, "But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, both now and the day of eternity."

The latest archeological findings indicate that St. Peter's Church in Rome rises over the site of his tomb, as Pius XII announced at the close of the Holy Year of 1950. In the catacombs many wall writings have been found which link the names of St. Peter and St. Paul, showing that popular devotion to the two great Apostles began in very early times. Paintings of later date commonly depict Peter as a short, energetic man with curly hair and beard; in art his traditional emblems are a boat, keys, and a bird (crow).

END NOTES:

1 For St. Irenaeus, see below; Clement of Alexandria was a Christian writer who died about the year 215; Tertullian was a Roman convert who lived and wrote in Carthage, dying about 230.

Saint Peter, Prince of the Apostles. Scriptural Saint. Celebration of Feast Day is June 29. Taken from "Lives of Saints", Published by John J. Crawley & Co., Inc.[/quote]


Is this better?
God Bless

Edited March 19, 2004 by Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Jesus Christ Established a Visible Church On Earth
by Fritz Tuttle

Every Christian believes that Jesus Christ established and sustains a community of faith, hope and love for all believers. This community we call His Church. The Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church which has a formal earthly structure established by Christ and which continues under His authority and protection.

In the Old Testament we see God's continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed prophets. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills. God established a law and a means for executing it.

In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said "build," as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.

Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles. We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18) There is no Scriptural evidence of independent local churches.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim to have been founded by Christ personally. Every other church traces its lineage back to a mere human person such as Martin Luther or John Wesley. The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to Jesus Christ who appointed St. Peter as the first pope. This line of popes has continued unbroken for almost 2,000 years.

God rules, instructs and sanctifies His people through His Church. Under her teaching office, the Catholic Church preserves the Word of God. She is the custodian, keeper, dispenser and interpreter of teachings of Christ. And she accomplishes this under the protection of the Holy Spirit. [/quote]

(Fritz Tuttle is active in Catholic apologetics and the Legion of Mary.)

[Carson Weber]

Lumberjack,

Did you see my post above?