Livin_the_MASS Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 [quote]Again, please see CCC 161. [/quote] What do mean?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 If you are going to conclude that one can be go to heaven without faith, then I have no choice but conclude that you can't be a Catholic. And I quote: "Since without faith it is impossible to please [God] and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end'" C.f. CCC 150-165 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 We were talking about the person performing the baptism, not the person being baptized. Or am I misunderstanding something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 [quote]If you are going to conclude that one can be go to heaven without faith[/quote] When did I say this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 you said that in an "emergency", ANYONE...implying ANYONE AND EVERYONE can baptize... saved or not...faith or not...whatever it might be...they can baptize thats what I gathered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 yeah, and if the person being baptized is conscious, they must profess a desire. and the person baptizing hasta have the intent to baptize them (which is basically not gonna happen if they don't have faith, the INTENT to clear the other's soul of original sin and bring them into the family of God, who without faith would have such intent?) if the person is unconsious a person may baptize them with the presumtion and hope that they would accept it if possible. if they're unconsious and their soul does not accept it then at least you tried. anyway, that's emergency. and that requires that the person being baptized has faith too, unless they're a baby and then the parents must have faith which they give to their child. if they never get a chance to give it to their child through teaching, if they had the intent to do so the child receives such faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Mar 19 2004, 08:33 PM'] yeah, and if the person being baptized is conscious, they must profess a desire. and the person baptizing hasta have the intent to baptize them (which is basically not gonna happen if they don't have faith, the INTENT to clear the other's soul of original sin and bring them into the family of God, who without faith would have such intent?) if the person is unconsious a person may baptize them with the presumtion and hope that they would accept it if possible. if they're unconsious and their soul does not accept it then at least you tried. anyway, that's emergency. and that requires that the person being baptized has faith too, unless they're a baby and then the parents must have faith which they give to their child. if they never get a chance to give it to their child through teaching, if they had the intent to do so the child receives such faith. [/quote] Okay, this is a slight tangent here... Why does the Church consider Protestant baptisms valid if they were not done with the same intent? If they were done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but not with the idea that it was clensing the soul of original sin, wouldn't it then be invalid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 CCC 1278 [quote]"The essential rite of Baptism consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water on his head, while pronouncing the invocation of the Most Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."[/quote] I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church honors protestant baptism's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 good question. i would be inclined to say their valid, but you bring up a good point. what exactly must one's intentions be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 An erroneous understanding of what baptism does at the time of one's baptism isn't enough to make one's baptism invalid. Otherwise, Baptists converting to Catholicism would have to be rebaptized! So yes, the Church views all baptisms done in the name of the Trinity (except Mormon baptisms -- since they believe each Person of the Trinity is a separate God) as valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 CCC 1260 [quote]"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Pascal mystery. [b][u]Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks truth and does the will of God in accordence with his understanding of it, can be saved[/u][/b]. It may be supposed that such persons would have [i]desired Baptism explicitly[/i] if they had known its necessity."[/quote] This should answer the questions!!!! God Bless Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Mar 19 2004, 09:10 PM'] (except Mormon baptisms -- since they believe each Person of the Trinity is a separate God) as valid. [/quote] so are you saying that Mormons are the straight wack-shnizzle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 lol.. umm... all we're sayin is mormon baptisms are not valid Christian baptisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 Lumberjack, Mormon quiz for ya' Do YOU know what planet God is from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 i think it starts with a K, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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