Trying Initial Conversion Again

[Dave]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Mar 19 2004, 06:54 PM'] hmm... i GUESS i stand corrected..


the person must have faith, though, correct? [/quote]
All the person doing the baptizing has to do is intend to do what the Church does. It wouldn't even be necessary for them to have faith.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]hehehe... Jason seems to be full of articles [/quote]

I can post an article on this if you would like! hee...hee....

Edited March 19, 2004 by Jason

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 19 2004, 05:57 PM'] All the person doing the baptizing has to do is intend to do what the Church does. It wouldn't even be necessary for them to have faith. [/quote]
that's interesting. hmm..... i would assume such a case would be very rare: a person who doesn't have any faith whatsoever intending to baptize correctly but TECHNICALLY it's possible.

alrighty then

[mulls]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 19 2004, 06:57 PM'] All the person doing the baptizing has to do is intend to do what the Church does. It wouldn't even be necessary for them to have faith. [/quote]
so it seems to be merely a ritual......a forumla for a child's salvation

[Dave]

[quote name='mulls' date='Mar 19 2004, 07:14 PM'] so it seems to be merely a ritual......a forumla for a child's salvation [/quote]
What's wrong with rituals? The Lord often chooses to send forth His grace via rituals.

Edited March 20, 2004 by Dave

[IcePrincessKRS]

A ritual, yes. A "mere" ritual, no. Baptism cleanses the SOUL, makes us pure and free from original sin. Nothing is more beautiful than a newly Baptized child, with an utterly pure soul. If my little Adrienne died right now, as horrifying as the idea of losing her is, I would be happy because I know she would be in heaven. (Ok, Christ's Body in the Eucharist is more beautiful, who's gonna argue with that? But you guys know what I mean! )

[Brother Adam]

Faith is absolutely essential for Salvation. Dont' kid yourselves. CCC 161

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]The Principles of This Pastoral Practice

28. In the first place, it is important to recall that the Baptism of infants must be considered a serious duty. The questions which it poses to pastors can be settled only by faithful attention to the teaching and constant practice of the Church.

Concretely, pastoral practice regarding infant Baptism must be governed by two great principles, the second of which is subordinate to the first.

1) Baptism, which is necessary for salvation, is the sign and the means of God's prevenient love, which frees us from original sin and communicates to us a share in divine life. Considered in itself, the gift of these blessings to infants must not be delayed.

2) Assurances must be given that the gift thus granted can grow by an authentic education in the faith and Christian life, in order to fulfill the true meaning of the sacrament.37 As a rule, these assurances are to be given by the parents or close relatives, although various substitutions are possible within the Christian community. But if these assurances are not really serious there can be grounds for delaying the sacrament; and if they are certainly non-existent the sacrament should even be refused.

Dialogue Between Pastors and Believing Families

29. On the basis of these two principles, concrete cases will be examined in a pastoral dialogue between the priest and the family. The rules for dialogue with parents who are practicing Christians are given in the Introduction to the Ritual. It is sufficient to recall here two of the more significant points.

In the first place, much importance is given to the presence and active participation of the parents in the celebration. The parents now have priority over the godparents, although the presence of the latter continues to be required, since their assistance in the child's education is valuable and can sometimes be essential.

Secondly, preparation for the Baptism has an important place. The parents must give thought to the Baptism; they should inform their pastors of the coming birth and prepare themselves spiritually. The pastors, for their part, will visit the families or gather them together and give them catechesis and appropriate advice. They will also urge the families to pray for the children that they are expecting.38

As for the time of the actual celebration, the indications in the Ritual should be followed: "The first consideration is the welfare of the child, that it may not be deprived of the benefit of the sacrament; then the health of the mother must be considered, so that, as far as possible she too may be present. Then, as long as they do not interfere with the greater good of the child, there are pastoral considerations such as allowing sufficient time to prepare the parents and for planning the actual celebration to bring out its paschal character." Accordingly, "if the child is in danger of death, it is to be baptized without delay"; otherwise, as a rule "an infant should be baptized within the first weeks after birth."39

Dialogue Between Pastors and Families With Little Faith or Non-Christian Families

30. It sometimes happens that pastors are approached by parents who have little faith and practice their religion only occasionally, or even by non-Christian parents who request Baptism for their children for reasons that deserve consideration.

In this case the pastor will endeavor by means of a clear-sighted and understanding dialogue to arouse the parents' interest in the sacrament they are requesting and make them aware of the responsibility that they are assuming.

In fact the Church can only accede to the desire of these parents if they give an assurance that, once the child is baptized, it will be given the benefit of the Christian upbringing required by the sacrament. The Church must have a well-founded hope that the Baptism will bear fruit.40

If the assurances given--for example, the choice of godparents who will take sincere care of the child, or the support of the community of the faithful--are sufficient, the priest cannot refuse to celebrate the sacrament without delay, as in the case of children of Christian families. If on the other hand they are insufficient, it will be prudent to delay Baptism. However the pastors should keep in contact with the parents so as to secure, if possible, the conditions required on their part for the celebration of the sacrament. If even this solution fails, it can be suggested, as a last recourse, that the child be enrolled in a catechumenate to be given when the child reaches school age.

31. These rules have already been made, and are already in force,41 but they require some clarifications.

In the first place it must be clear that the refusal of Baptism is not a means of exercising pressure. Nor can one speak of refusal, still less of discrimination, but rather of educational delay, according to individual cases, aimed at helping the family to grow in faith or to become more aware of its responsibilities.

With regard to the assurances, any pledge giving a well-founded hope for the Christian upbringing of the children deserves to be considered as sufficient.

Enrollment for a future catechumenate should not be accompanied by a specially created rite which would easily be taken as an equivalent of the sacrament itself. It should also be clear that this enrollment is not admittance to the catechumenate and that the infants cannot be considered catechumenates with all the prerogatives attached to being such. They must be presented later on for a catechumenate suited to their age. In this regard, it must be stated clearly that the existence in the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults of a Rite of Initiation for Children of Catechetical Age42 in no way means that the Church considers it preferable or normal to delay Baptism until that age.

Finally, in areas where families of little faith or non-Christian families make up the majority, so as to justify the local setting up by the Bishops' Conference of a joint pastoral plan which provides for postponing Baptism beyond the time fixed by the general law,43 Christian families living in these areas retain the full right to have their children baptized earlier. The sacrament is therefore to be administered in accordance with the Church's will and as the faith and generosity of these families deserve.[/quote]

I'm back hee... hee

God Bless! Peace!

[mulls]

that's fine, but i'm saying a ritual administered (performed? ah i can't find the proper word!) by somebody who doesn't even believe in it? that's kinda shady.



i find it hard to believe that an emergency baptism performed on a child by somebody who isn't a believer actually makes a difference with God. if this were true, than all of the power would be in the ritual itself, and it would have nothing to do with God.

like a child comes before God, and he says "oh, you died right after birth, but the doctor (who wasn't a believer) performed an emergency baptism on you, so you're ok." but the next child comes before God and he says "oh, you died right after birth, but nobody baptized you, so you gotta go to....." purgatory, hell, whatever the case may be.

this is how it is making sense to me right now.


and if God can save unbaptized babies through extraordinary means as it was stated before, what is the difference really if they are baptized or not?



i think i'm making some decent points here, please take them into consideration.

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='Mar 19 2004, 06:37 PM'] i think i'm making some decent points here, please take them into consideration. [/quote]
I agree. You are. lol

[KennC]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Mar 19 2004, 02:54 PM']

:wavey:[/quote]
[i]bowing[/i], m'Lady :tiphat:

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]i find it hard to believe that an emergency baptism performed on a child by somebody who isn't a believer actually makes a difference with God.[/quote]

Remember Jesus said Himself " unless we are born of water and Spirit." we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So it is a command to be baptized.

With the death thing and someone else doing it, "With God all things are possiable"

CCC 1256

[quote]"The ordinary ministers of Baptisim are the Bishop and the priest and in the Latin Church, also decons. [b][u]In case of necessity, ayone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize[/u][/b]...."[/quote]

Does this help?

God Bless
Peace

[Aloysius]

see, the intention seems to require at least a lil bit of belief. if they didn't believe in baptism and heaven, what would the purpose be in them having the intention to baptize a person to take away their sin. i mean, you kinda havta believe in heaven, hell, and original sin to have the intention to do what the Church teaches.

[Brother Adam]

Again, please see CCC 161.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I'm sorry I should have been more clear!

CCC 1256

"In the case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the requried intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula."

Sorry that means you have to baptize them (have the intention) in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. No other way.