Trying Initial Conversion Again

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Yes, it does happen.  When pop singer Madonna wanted to have her first child baptized, the priest refused because she said she planned to teach her that the Bible was just "a bunch of lies written by liars."[/quote]

not exactly the BEST of examples...lol...but an example nonetheless. I was talking about someone from the church...just an average person, have they ever been denied?


[quote]Consider this passage from Luke: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).  Notice that the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Proseferon de auto kai ta brephe). The Greek word brephe means "infants"— those who aren't aware.  Yet Jesus said that "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom.[/quote]

but Christ also said in verse 17:

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

[quote]5. It is the mind of Christ that little children should be brought to him, and presented as living sacrifices to his honour: "Suffer little children to come to me, and forbid them not; let nothing be done to hinder them, for they shall be as welcome as any.’’ The promise is to us, and to our seed; and therefore he that has the dispensing of promised blessings will bid them welcome to him with us.

6. The children of those who belong to the kingdom of God do likewise belong to that kingdom, as the children of freemen are freemen. If the parents be members of the visible church, the children are so too; for, if the root be holy, the branches are so.

7. So welcome are children to Christ that those grown people are most welcome to him who have in them most of the disposition of children (v. 17): Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, that is, receive the benefits of it with humility and thankfulness, not pretending to merit them as the Pharisee did, but gladly owning himself indebted to free grace for them, as the publican did; unless a man be brought to this self-denying frame he shall in no wise enter into that kingdom. They must receive the kingdom of God as children, receive their estates by descent and inheritance, not by purchase, and call it their Father’s gift.[/quote]

and while yes, our children are kept holy because of us and our teachings while they are babies, what effect does that baptism have when they grow up and choose to not follow the teachings of their parents and of God?

is this the parent's fault? though we have persevered and raised them in the way the Lord wanted? has our faith not sustained them? is our faith faulty? does the baptism wear off?

[quote]Both.  God gives us the grace we need to sustain our faith, but we also have to do our part by doing good works.  It's a 2-way street.  Our works both show AND sustain our faith.[/quote]

I feel you on that...

[quote]Then in Colossians, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.[/quote]

didn't Paul write this because the Christian Jews were trying to get all the new Christians to get circumcised? so of course he's going to make reference to circumcision (physically which the Jews had to do) and baptism...which we have to do.

love.

[hopeful1]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Mar 19 2004, 11:35 AM']

Is that a trick question? LOL.

My answer? None.

Because a non-Catholic Christian, who dies in the state of Grace, through invincible ignorance or whatever, by the time they actually get into heaven, will be Catholic.

In heaven, there are only Catholics.

[b]That is not saying that one who dies a non-Catholic will not enter heaven.[/b]


But is it possible for one to, for instance, deny Christ in the Eucharist, once they are in heaven - and have been revealed this truth? Can one who is in heaven deny the communion of Saints or their intercessory influence? There are no protests in Heaven, because everyone in Heaven believes the same thing. They are to the very full extent of the word "universal" or Catholic.

Even "Catholics" who die in a state of Grace, yet had ignorantly held on to things that weren't exactly Catholic will become Catholic!


Now, how many people who die as non-Catholics will eventually become Catholic and go into heaven?

Only God knows.


Hope that makes sense. [/quote]
i've never looked at it that way before, thanks for the new perspective Jake!

[Livin_the_MASS]

OK Brother Adam I'll give my conversion story (shortened) hee...hee,

I was born and raised Catholic, but it was more of a go to Church on Sunday thing. My parents were not taught the things we know today about our Catholic faith. Every Sunday dad was upstairs pulling the blinds up wakin me up "Time to go to Church son!" Well I hit my teenage years and sunk bottom. Got a little older got a job, stop going to church. I worked with a protestant and went to his service, something just didn't feel right. So I started to pray "Lord move me were do you want me to go?" I never left the Catholic Church but I was lost at the time, in search like you! Well one night about 2 or 3 years ago I fell on my knees and said a prayer to the Holy Spirit in tears. I was having health problems at the time. I was into sinful vices, I was at bottom. Almost instantly I changed. I went to confession for the first time in 15 years. After I went to confession I was lifted. My dad goes to Mass everyday now. Well one morning I said I'm going to Church. I went that day went home, read scripture and Christ open my eyes. It was like a train coming at me it gives me goose bumps thinking about it. I started going to Daily Mass (Which is His Credit,"Who is good but God alone.") everyday almost at first, Christ was showing things to me. Then Mary got into my life. I prayed one day at my mom and dads house that I was living at and prayed to find a good home for my family. I can't explain it but when I said that I had such a peace inside of me, (I can't explain it). Next day I called around looking for a house, first the lady said no, well half an hour later she called me back, knew my family and wanted me to rent the house. Then the Holy Rosary was introduced into my life, I understood as a meditation of the Gospels finally. E.W.T.N came into my life and I took off with wings. Everytime I would understand something in Scripture I would call someone and tell them. I was blessed by a priest who went to parishes for Eucharistic Adoration to proclaim His True Presence in The Eucharist. He had a cloth that they when He wiped the Sacred Chalice, a blood spot was left on it. True gift! After that I went to Adoration Once a week. I know what I know because I've come to know Jesus in the "Breaking of the Bread". I figure He has revealed these Truths to me for a reason, so I better not keep it to myself I have to share with others.

Anyway, I started going to an evangilst group near my home. Now I,ve extended it to here. I believe with all my heart in the Catholic Church, I would die for Jesus in the Eucharist! I wouldn't say that if it was just bread. He would have to give me the strength to do this. The early Christians when they were in prision asked for Holy Communion so they would have the strength not to deny Him out of fear for losing their lives.

Why do I believe what I believe, because of Jesus Truly Present in The Holy Eucharist, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, AND DIVINTY. Its in the Eucharist, all the answers your looking for are there, because it's Jesus, the one you are longing for, the Truth you are searching for.

God Bless
Peace and Love

Edited March 19, 2004 by Jason

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 19 2004, 12:08 PM']
not exactly the BEST of examples...lol...but an example nonetheless.  I was talking about someone from the church...just an average person, have they ever been denied?

[/quote]
Yes. When my husband and I went in to schedule our daughter's Baptism our priest had a chat with us about the responsibilities and importance of Baptism. During the meeting he told me about having to turn away a couple because they did not go to Mass and did not take their faith seriously--they weren't even members of his parish. They only wanted to have the child Baptized because the husband's father had asked when they were going to do it and the grandfather happened to be a member of the parish--they only did it to "get him off their backs". (Funny side note, to show them how its important to go forward with Baptizing your children with the right intentions and all he used the Godfather movies as an example of how not to be. lol) He told them they needed to start practicing their faith before he could Baptize their child.

[KennC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 19 2004, 11:34 AM']Again, how can we appropriately tie the faith of others to eternally redeeming another soul, when we are each induvidually responsible for our own soul. The examples in the Bible lead me to believe "prayers avail much", but not that my faith could save Lumberjack.
[/quote]
[quote] KJB 1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.[/quote]
How do we view this passage?

Ken

[Brother Adam]

oh. hehe. . . I don't remember seeing that there before. hehe.

*sheepishly goes away*

[KennC]

Hi Br Adam;

I'm not sure if your post was refering to mine but, don't go away I'm really asking here??
[i]btw, good to see ya, say hi to Mrs Br[/i]
Ken

Edited March 19, 2004 by KennC

[the lumberjack]

first off, as much love as I got for Bro Adam...we're not married.

and second, doesn't the bible also say that should the unbelieving spouse choose to leave the believing spouse, that he/she is not bound by anything to try to stay in the marriage? and in fact can re-marry?

[quote]Certainly, thought the Corinthians, God can't be glorified if I'm married to an unbeliever; for the sake of spirituality, I should divorce them.  This is a valid rationale for avoiding marriage with an unbeliever, but not for ending a marriage with an unbeliever

Paul answers: God can be glorified, especially in this type of situation, where the children and the spouse can be drawn to Christ.  Paul isn't backing off on inspiration; he merely claims that Jesus did not speak on this specific point, so he will!

[b]"Until he is old enough to take responsibility upon himself, the child of a believing parent is to be regarded as Christian. The parents 'holiness' extends to the child." (Morris)[/b]  However, if the unbelieving spouse refuses to be married, then the marriage can be broken; but isn't to be initiated or sought by the believer
With faith and patience, they can look for God to work in their present circumstances, difficult as they may be

If the unbelieving spouse should depart, the Christian is not under bondage to the marriage; meaning they are in fact free to remarry[/quote]

hope some of that made sense...

[PedroX]

Bro Adam

Peace...

You asked in this thread about another person's faith being involvedin healing (physical). Does it help to view salvation as a type of healing? In the Mass before we recieve the Eucharist we say "But only say the word, Lord, and we shall be healed." To me, this so wonderfully encapsulates my relationship with God. I am consitently working up to asking Him to heal me.

I'm sorry for rambling, but just wanted to give a personal angle.

peace...

[IcePrincessKRS]

haha Lumberjack, I hope you were making a joke at the start of your last post! Kenn was referring to Adam's wife... his real wife... she posts here as Mrs. Bro. Adam.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Mar 19 2004, 01:10 PM'] haha Lumberjack, I hope you were making a joke at the start of your last post! [/quote]
you know this!

[Jake Huether]

I might be confusing the issue. But Baptism isn't the "saving moment", in that we aren't assured of our salvation after baptism. At Baptism we "get saved" I suppose. But you well know that we are being saved, and hope to be saved. One who is Baptised can easily be damned if he rejects this grace, and turns his back on God. Baptism is the very begining of our journy toward salvation. Baptism opens the gates to us, but throughout our life we are walking there, toward Salvation. One cannot be saved without Baptism. But even with Baptism one might not be saved in the end.

Now, that in mind, indeed our Faith can initiate someones salvation. I can initiate LJ's salvation through my faith! But if he rejects the grace given to him through my faith, then he has made that choice.

A child, by virtue of being a child, can only accept what we give them. They cannot yet reject. I suppose that is a part of God's design, because, we know well that Father knows best for his child - even after the age of reason.


The centurion knew that his servant wouldn't reject this grace. So it was through the centurion's faith that his servant was healed. But that isn't to say that the servant would reject the healing and prefer to be sick again. Who knows. If you know what is good for you, you don't reject good. It would be silly for the servant to wish to be sick again.

But it is slightly different with the spiritual realm, because we have been lied to by Satan. Much of the good is twisted to look bad, and bad to look good. So indeed we can reject the grace given to us at Baptism and return to sin - we frequently do!


In sum: our faith can "save" others.




Maybe I'm rambling. Hope my 2 cents helped some.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 19 2004, 08:31 AM'] How many non-Catholic Christians will go to heaven? I'm not asking for an exact number, but what do you think. [/quote]
Like Jake said, the answer to this question would be none. However, what I think you are getting at is the question of how many people who are not [i]formal[/i] members of the Catholic Church can be saved. I'll answer this to the best of my ability.

1. Those who accept the authority of the Catholic Church and submit to the Pope, but who die before recieving the water baptism which would have made them a member of the Catholic Church, can be saved through a baptism of desire.

2. Those who are baptized into heretical or schismatic communions are made spiritual members of the Catholic Church, and if such a person dies before consciously rejecting the Catholic Church (and thus excluding himself from her membership), he can be saved. I'm sure many Protestant children have been saved this way. Most likley there have also been many Eastern Orthodox and Copts throughout history who have lived their entire lives without ever hearing that their Church was in schism, and thus were saved in this manner.

3. Those who never hear the Gospel or know of the Catholic Church, but who are lead by private revelation to reject the errors and superstitions of their pagan society and find at least an implicit knowledge of Christ, can be saved through a baptism of desire.

4. Those who are unbaptized, but who are martyred for the faith, can be saved through a baptism of blood. I'd like to think that aborted babies are saved in this manner.

[quote]There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) [/quote]

Edited March 19, 2004 by Hananiah

[Dave]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 19 2004, 01:08 PM'] but Christ also said in verse 17:

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.





[/quote]
And your point is ... ?

[quote]and while yes, our children are kept holy because of us and our teachings while they are babies, what effect does that baptism have when they grow up and choose to not follow the teachings of their parents and of God?

is this the parent's fault?  though we have persevered and raised them in the way the Lord wanted?  has our faith not sustained them?  is our faith faulty?  does the baptism wear off?[/quote]

If they choose not to follow the teachings of their parents and of God, then that's their fault, not their parents, not God's, and not baptism's. The only way baptism can guarantee someone heaven is if they die immediately after being baptized. Through baptism God gives us many graces to serve Him and obey Him, but we have the free will to accept or reject that grace. If we choose not to accept it, woe be unto us!

[quote]didn't Paul write this because the Christian Jews were trying to get all the new Christians to get circumcised?  so of course he's going to make reference to circumcision (physically which the Jews had to do) and baptism...which we have to do.[/quote]

What difference does that make?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 19 2004, 12:42 PM'] first off, as much love as I got for Bro Adam...we're not married.

[/quote]
No....





That'd be me!