Forest Fire Jihad In Australia?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1781687' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:45 PM']That's what the radicals hope we will do.[/quote]


which radicals?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1781686' date='Feb 15 2009, 04:45 PM']Your not an Islamic Scholar, obviously you are not invested in preserving Muhammad's ideology in a pristine form, so why discourage Muslims from interpreting their Qur'an peacefully?[/quote]

I would really like to know how they interpret this:

[quote]I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. (Sura 8:12)[/quote]

[b]peacefully[/b].

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1781686' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:45 PM']Your not an Islamic Scholar, obviously you are not invested in preserving Muhammad's ideology in a pristine form, so why discourage Muslims from interpreting their Qur'an peacefully?[/quote]


Mohammed's ideology is being preserved in quite a pristine form already, thanks to the millions of jihadists around the world who are taking after the example of his life--he who is the supreme model of Islamic life--a murderer, a war-mongerer, a hater and murderer of Jews and Christians, and a pedophile.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1781666' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:37 PM']I'm sure that MV knows that. I am equally sure that you are aware of the fact that the average Muslim can disagree with a Muslim scholar who says that Islam does not promote violence.[/quote]


Exactly. And jihadist Muslims who are wreaking havoc from one continent to the other believe that peace-loving Dr. Ali is a heretic and an apostate for NOT promoting the violent teachings of the Koran.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1781692' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:48 PM']which radicals?[/quote]


Oh. Please.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1781694' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:49 PM']I would really like to know how they interpret this:



[b]peacefully[/b].[/quote]


Perhapse you should ask an Imam or knowledgiable Muslim.

That's prolly what I would do

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1781705' date='Feb 15 2009, 04:53 PM']Perhapse you should ask an Imam or knowledgiable Muslim.

That's prolly what I would do[/quote]

And perhaps you should be able to back up your arguments.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1781708' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:55 PM']And perhaps you should be able to back up your arguments.[/quote]


Which argument?

You asked how such a Muslim or scholar would interpret that berse peacefully, as there are no Muslims or Islamic scholars here you prolly won't get it answered here and may want to go seek one out to ask.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Hassan

[Madame Vengier]

[b]The Koran's 164 Jihad Verses [/b]


1 2:178 26 3:156 51 4:103 76 8:57 101 09:029 126 29:69 151 59:05
2 2:179 27 3:157 52 4:104 77 8:58 102 09:036 127 33:15 152 59:06
3 2:190 28 3:158 53 4:141 78 8:59 103 09:038 128 33:18 153 59:07
4 2:191 29 3:165 54 5:033 79 8:60 104 09:039 129 33:20 154 59:08
5 2:193 30 3:166 55 5:035 80 8:65 105 09:041 130 33:23 155 59:14
6 2:194 31 3:167 56 5:082 81 8:66 106 09:044 131 33:25 156 60:09
7 2:216 32 3:169 57 8:001 82 8:67 107 09:052 132 33:26 157 61:04
8 2:217 33 3:172 58 8:005 83 8:68 108 09:073 133 33:27 158 61:11
9 2:218 34 3:173 59 8:007 84 8:69 109 09:081 134 33:50 159 61:13
10 2:244 35 3:195 60 8:009 85 8:70 110 09:083 135 42:39 160 63:04
11 3:121 36 4:071 61 8:010 86 8:71 111 09:086 136 47:04 161 64:14
12 3:122 37 4:072 62 8:012 87 8:72 112 09:088 137 47:20 162 66:09
13 3:123 38 4:074 63 8:015 88 8:73 113 09:092 138 47:35 163 73:20
14 3:124 39 4:075 64 8:016 89 8:74 114 09:111 139 48:15 164 76:08
15 3:125 40 4:076 65 8:017 90 8:75 115 09:120 140 48:16
16 3:126 41 4:077 66 8:039 91 9:05 116 09:122 141 48:17
17 3:140 42 4:084 67 8:040 92 9:12 117 09:123 142 48:18
18 3:141 43 4:089 68 8:041 93 9:13 118 16:110 143 48:19
19 3:142 44 4:090 69 8:042 94 9:14 119 22:039 144 48:20
20 3:143 45 4:091 70 8:043 95 9:16 120 22:058 145 48:21
21 3:146 46 4:094 71 8:044 96 9:19 121 22:078 146 48:22
22 3:152 47 4:095 72 8:045 97 9:20 122 24:053 147 48:23
23 3:153 48 4:100 73 8:046 98 9:24 123 24:055 148 48:24
24 3:154 49 4:101 74 8:047 99 9:25 124 25:052 149 49:15
25 3:155 50 4:102 75 8:048 100 9:26 125 29:006 150 59:02


But yeah, I'm not an Islamic scholar either, so I'm sure there is a good explanation for all these calls for blood.

And since not everyone will want to look up those verses, here are a few:

[quote][2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.[/quote]

[quote]Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[/quote]

[quote]Go forth light [lightly armed] and heavy [heavily armed], and strive hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your persons...[/quote]

Plenty more here: [url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Theme...d_passages.html[/url]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1781709' date='Feb 15 2009, 04:57 PM']Which argument?

You asked how such a Muslim or scholar would interpret that berse peacefully, as there are no Muslims or Islamic scholars here you prolly won't get it answered here and may want to go seek one out to ask.[/quote]

Oh come on. You do believe one can find a way to peacefully interpret the verse I provided, plus the ones MV provided?

[Maggyie]

[url="http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/this_site.html"]Islamdenouncesterrorism.com[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM"]A Look Inside the Koran and the Bible[/url] (from the Catholic news organization, Zenit).

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1781675' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:40 PM']The Koran condones, encourages and congratulates violence against the infidel and the infidel lands. This is a fact that can't be denied.[/quote]

But people do deny it. Really smart people, who have devoted their lives to Islamic scholarship. Their academic credentials are impeccable and they are not lacking in religious devotion. They are not just plain stupid, denying this obvious reality you refer to.

The Bible contains objective Truth, which exists independently of whether or not anyone correctly interprets it, or believes it.

The Qur'an has no such power behind it. Mohammed is dead. His writing can only teach what you, or what Muslims, or whatever anyone who reads it, chooses to believe it teaches.

It is common nowadays to find, in America, literature about how Islam demands violence from its adherents. This of course, plays right into the hands of the extremists, who are saying the same thing. Why do we do this? Why do we endorse the views of such monsters?

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm not taking any sides here, so don't take this the wrong way please. I ask as an honest question.
Actually I've asked before in a similar thread, but for the life of me I can't remember what I learned...
...but there are certainly verses in the Bible which either are violent or seem to advocate violence. I can't cite anything off the top of my head, but what comes to mind is the time when the Jews entered the Promised Land and killed many people who were already living there.

How do we interpret 'violent' verses in the Bible?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1781714' date='Feb 15 2009, 06:00 PM']Oh come on. You do believe one can find a way to peacefully interpret the verse I provided, plus the ones MV provided?[/quote]


Well let's look at one of Madam V's quotes.


"[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."


hm? I wonder what could be in those "..." spaces

[i][b]Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.[/b] (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) [b]But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[/b] (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (193) The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil). (194) Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent. (195) [/i]


I think simply putting in those parts that MadamV edited out answers you questions with regards to this verse. There are serious problems in Islamic fiqh, and even in the sharia, but the way to approach this is not wretching text out of context and manipulating it to promote an agenda on intolerance and anger. Muslims need to answer some honest reservations about their scripture, such as Surah 9:29 (the head of Al Ahzar started such a process back in the 50's), but muslims should not have to defend themselves from a whitch hunt though.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1781723' date='Feb 15 2009, 06:06 PM']But people do deny it. Really smart people, who have devoted their lives to Islamic scholarship. Their academic credentials are impeccable and they are not lacking in religious devotion. They are not just plain stupid, denying this obvious reality you refer to.[/quote]


Such as Muhammad Asad. Or other well respected scholars I could name. Why some people here seem to want these people to fail to convince Muslims that there view is right is a tad quixotic.