Forest Fire Jihad In Australia?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1781642' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:24 PM']Yes, I'm not calling you arrogant, Madame. I'm saying it sounds really arrogant and dismissive, what you said. Why shouldn't the gentleman quoted be given the benefit of the doubt, that he has devoted his life to Islamic scholarship and so maybe he has a legitimate point.

What is your goal with these things, Madame? Is your goal to convince the West that Islam is evil and Muslims should be treated with suspicion and hostility? Or are your trying to proselytize Muslims by convincing them their religion is evil? (not a good strategy)

Or do you want peace?

If we want peace, then why should we disagree with a scholar who says Islam does not condone violence? Shouldn't we be encouraging and strengthening and amplifying those voices instead of ridiculing them and dismissing them?

Do we really welcome voices within Islam saying No, Enough, This is wrong, This is not True Islam. Or do we prefer silence because it allows us to make rhetorical points (See!!! Islam = EVIL!!!)[/quote]

I'm posting NEWS ITEMS. Again, if you don't like them or it they trouble you or make you uncomfortable, I don't see a reason to post in these threads.

My comment about Dr. Ali was in reference to his remarks that the Muslims cheering the fires "don't know what they are talking about". In fact, it is Dr. Ali himself who is "arrogant and dismissive" by ignoring the feelings of his fellow co-religionists who are simply behaving in a manner that they believe is in keeping with Koranic teaching and the example of the life of Mohammed, the supreme model of Islamic life. In no way did I question his scholarship. YOU attributed to me something that I neither said nor even hinted at.

If I didn't want peace, I would ignore Islam. And Islam DOES condone violence. It matters not that one cleric denies this. There are also numerous Catholic clerics who preach false doctrine and false Biblical interpretation, but we have to be discerning with them, don't we?

Edited February 15, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1781644' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:27 PM']So there's no responsibility to be born by those who enter a thread for the sole purpose of making DELIBERATE off-topic comments? The responsibility lies solely on others to "just ignore it"? One the one hand, there is a denial that hijacking happens deliberately, while on the other hand placing the burden on others to either "ignore" or deal with the consequences of what is clearly a deliberate attempt to hijack a thread. It almost sounds like something similar to "blame the victim". I'm not seeing the justice in that.[/quote]


I'm not sure where you see the contradiction between the proposition that thread's getting off topic is generally not intentional and that once such digression happens they best way to get it back on track is to just ignore it.

For instance, Rachael makes a silly face. I doubt that silly face would have gone anywhere, that is until you needed to post a paragraph about the evils and hypocracy of silly faces in this context, I thought that was both annoying and a serious overreaction so I made my comment about letting bubbles go and alchohol, and the mod posts on it again, advising you to ignore it. The thread had then gotten back on topic until you decided that you needed to speak out about this perverted victim blaming behavior, to which I am now responding to.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1781644' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:27 PM']So there's no responsibility to be born by those who enter a thread for the sole purpose of making DELIBERATE off-topic comments? The responsibility lies solely on others to "just ignore it"? One the one hand, there is a denial that hijacking happens deliberately, while on the other hand placing the burden on others to either "ignore" or deal with the consequences of what is clearly a deliberate attempt to hijack a thread. It almost sounds like something similar to "blame the victim". I'm not seeing the justice in that.[/quote]

Thread hijacking is rude but not an editable offense. You can't know for certain whether it's deliberate or not. So, yes, ignore the off topic posts and discuss your subject matter.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1781649' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:30 PM']I'm posting NEWS ITEMS. Again, if you don't like them or it they trouble you or make you uncomfortable, I don't see a reason to post in these threads.[/quote]

You understand that people are allowed to disagree with you right?

[Lilllabettt]

This is what was said about Dr. Ameer Ali in the article you posted:

[i]Regional Islamic Council vice-president Dr Ameer Ali said the comments did not represent the wider Muslim community."They have no idea what they are talking about," he said.
[/i]

You replied:
[i]Unfortunately for Dr. Ali, the Koran--which advocates and encourages "jihad against the infidels by any means necessary"--says he's wrong.[/i]

You say your goal is peace, and I believe you. How does insisting that he is wrong, and that the the Qu'ran really and truly encourages violence, lead to peace?

Why lend your voice to the chorus of Imams who tell devout Muslims that in order to be faithful to their religion, they must sacrifice their children to Moloch?

How does this lead to peace?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1781658' date='Feb 15 2009, 04:33 PM']You can't know for certain whether it's deliberate or not.[/quote]

In this particular thread I believe it was deliberate. The first reply to this thread was off-topic. How much more deliberate can it get?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1781661' date='Feb 15 2009, 02:34 PM']You understand that people are allowed to disagree with you right?[/quote]
I'm sure that MV knows that. I am equally sure that you are aware of the fact that the average Muslim can disagree with a Muslim scholar who says that Islam does not promote violence.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1781666' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:37 PM']I am equally sure that you are aware of the fact that the average Muslim can disagree with a Muslim scholar who says that Islam does not promote violence.[/quote]

Of course

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1781666' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:37 PM']I am equally sure that you are aware of the fact that the average Muslim can disagree with a Muslim scholar who says that Islam does not promote violence.[/quote]

Of course

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1781664' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:36 PM']This is what was said about Dr. Ameer Ali in the article you posted:

[i]Regional Islamic Council vice-president Dr Ameer Ali said the comments did not represent the wider Muslim community."They have no idea what they are talking about," he said.
[/i]

You replied:
[i]Unfortunately for Dr. Ali, the Koran--which advocates and encourages "jihad against the infidels by any means necessary"--says he's wrong.[/i]

You say your goal is peace, and I believe you. How does insisting that he is wrong, and that the the Qu'ran really and truly encourages violence, lead to peace?

Why lend your voice to the chorus of Imams who tell devout Muslims that in order to be faithful to their religion, they must sacrifice their children to Moloch?

How does this lead to peace?[/quote]

I edited my comment and made some additions that I think better clarify my thoughts. Feel free to read it, but I'm not going to argue one point over and over with you.

The Koran condones, encourages and congratulates violence against the infidel and the infidel lands. This is a fact that can't be denied. I insist he is wrong because I have a greater desire for Truth than I do for holding hands.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1781664' date='Feb 15 2009, 04:36 PM']You say your goal is peace, and I believe you. How does insisting that he is wrong, and that the the Qu'ran really and truly encourages violence, lead to peace?[/quote]

Would you rather we ignore the blatant violence of the Qu'ran for the sake of peace?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1781675' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:40 PM']I edited my comment and made some additions that I think better clarify my thoughts. Feel free to read it, but I'm not going to argue one point over and over with you.

The Koran condones, encourages and congratulates violence against the infidel and the infidel lands. This is a fact that can't be denied. I insist he is wrong because I have a greater desire for Truth than I do for holding hands.[/quote]


Sure it can.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1781665' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:36 PM']In this particular thread I believe it was deliberate. The first reply to this thread was off-topic. How much more deliberate can it get?[/quote]


Let's get back to the topic, which has gratefully re-awakened. I would rather read posts that are on topic even if I don't agree, than to read off-topic comments made deliberately to ruin the thread.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1781676' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:41 PM']Would you rather we ignore the blatant violence of the Qu'ran for the sake of peace?[/quote]


Your not an Islamic Scholar, obviously you are not invested in preserving Muhammad's ideology in a pristine form, so why discourage Muslims from interpreting their Qur'an peacefully?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1781676' date='Feb 15 2009, 05:41 PM']Would you rather we ignore the blatant violence of the Qu'ran for the sake of peace?[/quote]


That's what the radicals hope we will do.