New Religious Communities - A Poll

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Piobaire' post='1776140' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:28 PM']It is amazing to me how God has worked in my life. I always swore I would never enter a new order and only discerned with the well known 'historical' orders such as the Dominicans and Carmelites. Yet after having been part of a community of Dominicans, new foundation yet connected to a much older foundation, I can see that just because an order is older or more established does not make it better or 'safer' then a new order.

I have recently been accepted into a brand new order, the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Church in Spokane, WA and I am thrilled with what is happening in their community. They are perhaps a bit unique in that they are coming from an established community and of the 10 sisters two were former mother superiors and one is the former novice mistress so they have much experiene. I think if I were to enter a totally new order where the founder was not a religious and had no previous experience I would be very cautious. I discerned with an order here in Canada where a woman was starting it and had no experience of religious life. That was a bit too challenging for me! I suppose with my past experiences discerning with new orders it all comes down to the founder. If they are coming from religious life and have experience it makes a world of difference. Those who have never been religious and start a new order make me a bit nervous and I would give it a few years to see how things develop.

The Spirit blows where He wills and how He wills and His ways are mysterious to us. We are living in an incredible time of the New Evangelization and young people everywhere are responding to our dear JPII's challenge. I have heard many a time the reference to JPII's army that is emerging in response to the graces of his pontificate. If the Spirit sees fit to stir up new orders and new charims as a source of renewal and revitalization then praise God! I find it interesting that many new orders that are being established are very orthodox in their beliefs and practices such as the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

In Jesus and Mary,
Allison[/quote]

I will pray that your new community is all you hope and expect. The last community I discerned with was started by a woman who had been an active sister for 12 years, so I thought that this would eliminate the problem of no experience. In fact, she still had no real structure in place (and was still redesigning her habit) after a year of incorporation as a nonprofit. She seemed to have no idea of what steps she needed to take to become an association of the faithful, either private or public, and her ministry was run in a sloppy and almost negligent way. I was very disappointed at what I found, despite my high hopes.

If the founding members of your new community have a lot of experience as superiors and formators, then things should be better for you. I hope they also know how to take all the steps that are necessary to grow the community. I will be praying for you. Those communities that are divinely inspired will succeed, despite all obstacles, if their leaders stay faithful to the Church and to the Will of God. God bless you!

[VeniteAdoremus]

In answer to Puella: I will, if you lot promise not to kill me on this, [i]try[/i] to illustrate my hesitancy concerning some new communities.

I was speaking on the topic of vocations with an acquaintance of mine who is currently a transeunt deacon. He very neatly put my definition of a vocation to rights, by pointing out that a vocation can only be situated [i]in the context of the Church[/i]. We decided (and we're always right ) that your vocation is the way God planned for you
1. to gain Heaven, AND
2. to serve the Church, so that others might do the same.

All vocations are in context of the Church - enweaved in the fabric, so to speak, and new communities must be exactly the same, if not more strongly. Of course, it is possible to have a silly Bishop who tries to block the process for whatever reason (although with most successful communities, the shepherds seem to be [i]lining up[/i] to get a group of religious to their diocese). But in general, the foundation needs to be ingrained in the Church from the very beginning.

Not so rarely, a foundation seems to be made by a group of people who are disgruntled by the state of the Church, and wish to form their own little "colony" in which they can be safe from it. This is a [i]negative[/i] reason. dominicansoul's experience seems to illustrate another example.

At other times a foundation is made by people who are very concerned by the state of the Church and want to offer themselves up to God for the benefit of said Church and their souls (and to make, or so I hear, darn good coffee).

See the difference?

I am in no way saying that the "negative choice" people don't mean well, or that they're selfish, or anything like that. And they will probably have some form of ministry in mind in which they can serve. But the basic premise needs to be [i]the giving of self[/i]... and that often doesn't go together with a big set of "this is how I think it should be done".

There are, by the way, many other types of negative and positive choices. This was just one. The Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church are a prime example of the positive choice: they didn't leave their community because they hated it there, but because they wanted to be part of the Roman church again.

Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion, at one in the morning, on a Sunday after I went to a kiddy Mass (which was painful).

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1776148' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:55 PM']In answer to Puella: I will, if you lot promise not to kill me on this, [i]try[/i] to illustrate my hesitancy concerning some new communities.

I was speaking on the topic of vocations with an acquaintance of mine who is currently a transeunt deacon. He very neatly put my definition of a vocation to rights, by pointing out that a vocation can only be situated [i]in the context of the Church[/i]. We decided (and we're always right ) that your vocation is the way God planned for you
1. to gain Heaven, AND
2. to serve the Church, so that others might do the same.

All vocations are in context of the Church - enweaved in the fabric, so to speak, and new communities must be exactly the same, if not more strongly. Of course, it is possible to have a silly Bishop who tries to block the process for whatever reason (although with most successful communities, the shepherds seem to be [i]lining up[/i] to get a group of religious to their diocese). But in general, the foundation needs to be ingrained in the Church from the very beginning.

Not so rarely, a foundation seems to be made by a group of people who are disgruntled by the state of the Church, and wish to form their own little "colony" in which they can be safe from it. This is a [i]negative[/i] reason. dominicansoul's experience seems to illustrate another example.

At other times a foundation is made by people who are very concerned by the state of the Church and want to offer themselves up to God for the benefit of said Church and their souls (and to make, or so I hear, darn good coffee).

See the difference?

I am in no way saying that the "negative choice" people don't mean well, or that they're selfish, or anything like that. And they will probably have some form of ministry in mind in which they can serve. But the basic premise needs to be [i]the giving of self[/i]... and that often doesn't go together with a big set of "this is how I think it should be done".

There are, by the way, many other types of negative and positive choices. This was just one. The Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church are a prime example of the positive choice: they didn't leave their community because they hated it there, but because they wanted to be part of the Roman church again.

Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion, at one in the morning, on a Sunday after I went to a kiddy Mass (which was painful). [/quote]

Very well put. Now it raises another question for me. When is it a "calling within calling" (like Mother Teresa) to leave one's community and when is it just that one wants to do one's own thing?

I am purposely not naming names here because I don't want to be uncharitable, so please don't ask me for specifics. But the recent community I visited was started by a sister who had spent 12 years in an active community and she left for 3 years exclaustration because she thought she was called to contemplative life. She spent two weeks with the Carmelites but didn't enter there for various reasons. She then started some work with the poor in her parish, and after three years of exclaustration, finally decided to finalize her exit from her previous community and make her own status more official as a new foundress. She took private vows with her Bishop and now is looking for people to join her - but she doesn't seem to have any plan in mind or idea what to do next. Her work with the poor is minimal (but still very appreciated by those she does manage to help - dont' get me wrong) and her prayer life is also very disorganized (although better than a previous community I had been with).

So, her life is her life, but I wondered to myself why she couldn't stay in her original community and do some good work there - perhaps by helping them to move into more work with the poor (they were involved with other types of ministry which she didn't want to do any more).

So, when is it a real call to leave one community to start another - and when is it just feeling unsatisfied or unfulfilled or whatever you want to call it, and wanting to "do your own thing"? I know that I didn't see a lot of self-denial or self-sacrifice happening, in fact just the opposite - a lot of self-indulgence. But then I kick myself for being uncharitable and judging others.

Some input on when is it ok to make these calls in discernment - to use one's common sense and judgement without "judging"? I know that I just didn't feel comfortable with what was happening, and I really felt that she wasn't doing anything extra special that warranted leaving her community after 12 years! And yet Mother Teresa did it - and we can all see that this was a real call and she was a saint! Help me out here folks!

Edited February 9, 2009 by nunsense

[shortnun]

I don't think I have anything of substance to add to the conversation. I'm just really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts. Thanks.

[HollyDolly]

Thanks for the insights.Not much for me to add to the subject.

[osapientia]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1775708' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:22 AM']Yes, the diocesan and pontifical stages take very very long... The SSVM have almost 800 members now (in the female branch) and they're not pontifical yet!

As FiereMargriet indicated, it's different when it's your call If it were my call... I would probably follow (being realistic here, hence the "probably").

But if it were my own call, I wouldn't join any place before at the very least public association of the faithful, and this is still pending the experience of the other members.

And my own community isn't very old yet either! I don't know the exact year when they split off, but I believe it's a bit less than 20 years ago.[/quote]

While it most often does take a very long time to gain Diocesan or Pontifical status, I do not THINK that the number of members in the community is the main issue....nor do I believe (I can reearch further) that there is a juridical number requirement. I personally know (very well)a community that is a Benedcitine community of Pontifical Right and at the time they were approved as such they had 26 members and had been established for under 10 years. While that timeframe is quite rare I don't think the number of members is all that rare...nor do I believe the number matters. It could be of course because this community was not establishing a "new charism" - they are straight OSB women with solemn vows, but they were not a "daugher house" either.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Piobaire' post='1776140' date='Feb 8 2009, 07:28 PM']It is amazing to me how God has worked in my life. I always swore I would never enter a new order and only discerned with the well known 'historical' orders such as the Dominicans and Carmelites. Yet after having been part of a community of Dominicans, new foundation yet connected to a much older foundation, I can see that just because an order is older or more established does not make it better or 'safer' then a new order.

I have recently been accepted into a brand new order, the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Church in Spokane, WA and I am thrilled with what is happening in their community. They are perhaps a bit unique in that they are coming from an established community and of the 10 sisters two were former mother superiors and one is the former novice mistress so they have much experiene. I think if I were to enter a totally new order where the founder was not a religious and had no previous experience I would be very cautious. I discerned with an order here in Canada where a woman was starting it and had no experience of religious life. That was a bit too challenging for me! I suppose with my past experiences discerning with new orders it all comes down to the founder. If they are coming from religious life and have experience it makes a world of difference. Those who have never been religious and start a new order make me a bit nervous and I would give it a few years to see how things develop.

The Spirit blows where He wills and how He wills and His ways are mysterious to us. We are living in an incredible time of the New Evangelization and young people everywhere are responding to our dear JPII's challenge. I have heard many a time the reference to JPII's army that is emerging in response to the graces of his pontificate. If the Spirit sees fit to stir up new orders and new charims as a source of renewal and revitalization then praise God! I find it interesting that many new orders that are being established are very orthodox in their beliefs and practices such as the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

In Jesus and Mary,
Allison[/quote]

Allison thank you so much for posting! I am so excited for you.

Will you be entering at the end of the summer?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='osapientia' post='1776779' date='Feb 9 2009, 09:38 AM']While it most often does take a very long time to gain Diocesan or Pontifical status, I do not THINK that the number of members in the community is the main issue....nor do I believe (I can reearch further) that there is a juridical number requirement. I personally know (very well)a community that is a Benedcitine community of Pontifical Right and at the time they were approved as such they had 26 members and had been established for under 10 years. While that timeframe is quite rare I don't think the number of members is all that rare...nor do I believe the number matters. It could be of course because this community was not establishing a "new charism" - they are straight OSB women with solemn vows, but they were not a "daugher house" either.[/quote]

Diocesan status depends upon the Bishop so I would think that this is easier to get quickly - if the Bishop approves of the community (or has even asked them to come there). Sometimes a new community can also be under the umbrella of another one, even if they aren't truly affiliated. This is done to help gain status in the beginning years. I would imagine that a straight OSB community would be under the patronage of the Benedictines, even if they were not a daughter house of any kind. Being affiliated with an order like the Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites etc, seems (to me) to lend more of an aura of stability to a new community - but then again - some really totally new communities have really flourished, so it is all God's Will, I know.

It does seem that some communities move much more quickly than others towards official status, and this might depend upon many factors such as vocations, ministry etc. Obviously the Holy Spirit guides and directs new communities, and some are meant to persevere and others to exist for only a short time - God does work in His own ways. We need to pray for all new communities, and then trust in God to use those He chooses, in the way He chooses.

[Orans]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1776926' date='Feb 9 2009, 03:37 PM']Diocesan status depends upon the Bishop so I would think that this is easier to get quickly - if the Bishop approves of the community (or has even asked them to come there).[/quote]
Diocesan status depends upond the Bishop, indeed, but only after approval from Rome of Constitutions and everything as required for a Diocesan Religious Institute. So it is not the authority of the bishop alone that makes the group a Religious Congregation. This is recognized by Rome as well.

[the lords sheep]

It would all depend. If I felt that God was truly calling me there, I'd go. I would ask many careful questions about their formation, however, and if they would be receiving any outside help from other communities. I think that they must have healthy formation or they will not be able to have a firm foundation as religious. I also that whoever is forming the new community will have a huge influence on the future of the community, so I would want to meet that person too, and maybe even get to know her/his community, as that community's view on religious life will probably shape the new community's view.

[Gemma]

The Six Pillars of Emerging Charisms are:

Rule
Constitutions
Horarium (timetable/schedule)
Novitiate
Stable source of habit parts
4 persevering members

A note on "private" and "Public" associations of the faithful:

Two people coming together and following a set of rules for ministering to God's people constitute a private association of Christ's faithful. A bishop cannot set this up, he can only acknowledge that it exists. The two or more people doing this with a view of becoming a religious community usually are identified as a "Private association of the faithful with an intent of becoming an institute of religious life." The last part of that phrase is what you're looking for if you're discerning a community, and are feeling drawn to either found one or to help found one.

As for Public associations of the faithful, even groups who have no intention of becoming a religious community can be recognized as a such, as long as they have statutes and a board of directors. Whenever a group which is wanting to become an institute of religious life is recognized as such, they usually get to wear the habit, and are permitted to make new foundations when the bishop gives them this recognition.

When it comes to Benedictine or Dominican or whatever--it depends on who's making the new foundation. If there are established sisters or brothers making a new community, they are considered an emerging charism, and usually have a greater chance at survival because they have the Six Pillars. Affiliation as a new congregation to the order is what they are striving for. This is what happened with the Ann Arbor Dominicans.

Emerging charisms who wish to be affiliated eventually with an order have a tougher row to hoe. Usually there are many years of discernment, then contact with the order they wish to affiliate to. The Order will tell them to let the Heavenly Founder guide them in the particular path he or she wants them to go. The charism will have to be lived, and new members properly trained and finally professed before the order will recognize them as a branch.

There are many, many inconsistencies with emerging charisms as far as what bishops do or don't do on their behalf. Cloister Outreach, with the help of our Dominican spiritual director who was part of the now-defunct Fellowship of Emerging Communities, hopes to help clear the clouds of episcopal inconsistency, and help emerging charisms get their act together. Everybody needs to pray for this inconsistency to be cleared up for the sake of the Church.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1789301' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:44 PM']The Six Pillars of Emerging Charisms are:

Rule
Constitutions
Horarium (timetable/schedule)
Novitiate
Stable source of habit parts
4 persevering members

A note on "private" and "Public" associations of the faithful:

Two people coming together and following a set of rules for ministering to God's people constitute a private association of Christ's faithful. A bishop cannot set this up, he can only acknowledge that it exists. The two or more people doing this with a view of becoming a religious community usually are identified as a "Private association of the faithful with an intent of becoming an institute of religious life." The last part of that phrase is what you're looking for if you're discerning a community, and are feeling drawn to either found one or to help found one.

As for Public associations of the faithful, even groups who have no intention of becoming a religious community can be recognized as a such, as long as they have statutes and a board of directors. Whenever a group which is wanting to become an institute of religious life is recognized as such, they usually get to wear the habit, and are permitted to make new foundations when the bishop gives them this recognition.

When it comes to Benedictine or Dominican or whatever--it depends on who's making the new foundation. If there are established sisters or brothers making a new community, they are considered an emerging charism, and usually have a greater chance at survival because they have the Six Pillars. Affiliation as a new congregation to the order is what they are striving for. This is what happened with the Ann Arbor Dominicans.

Emerging charisms who wish to be affiliated eventually with an order have a tougher row to hoe. Usually there are many years of discernment, then contact with the order they wish to affiliate to. The Order will tell them to let the Heavenly Founder guide them in the particular path he or she wants them to go. The charism will have to be lived, and new members properly trained and finally professed before the order will recognize them as a branch.

There are many, many inconsistencies with emerging charisms as far as what bishops do or don't do on their behalf. Cloister Outreach, with the help of our Dominican spiritual director who was part of the now-defunct Fellowship of Emerging Communities, hopes to help clear the clouds of episcopal inconsistency, and help emerging charisms get their act together. Everybody needs to pray for this inconsistency to be cleared up for the sake of the Church.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Actually, it's SEVEN pillars and the seventh is remunerative work.

Sorry--been in caretaker mode since the first part of December.

Blessings,
Gemma

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1789301' date='Feb 23 2009, 09:44 AM']The Six Pillars of Emerging Charisms are:

Rule
Constitutions
Horarium (timetable/schedule)
Novitiate
Stable source of habit parts
4 persevering members

A note on "private" and "Public" associations of the faithful:

Two people coming together and following a set of rules for ministering to God's people constitute a private association of Christ's faithful. A bishop cannot set this up, he can only acknowledge that it exists. The two or more people doing this with a view of becoming a religious community usually are identified as a "Private association of the faithful with an intent of becoming an institute of religious life." The last part of that phrase is what you're looking for if you're discerning a community, and are feeling drawn to either found one or to help found one.

As for Public associations of the faithful, even groups who have no intention of becoming a religious community can be recognized as a such, as long as they have statutes and a board of directors. Whenever a group which is wanting to become an institute of religious life is recognized as such, they usually get to wear the habit, and are permitted to make new foundations when the bishop gives them this recognition.

When it comes to Benedictine or Dominican or whatever--it depends on who's making the new foundation. If there are established sisters or brothers making a new community, they are considered an emerging charism, and usually have a greater chance at survival because they have the Six Pillars. Affiliation as a new congregation to the order is what they are striving for. This is what happened with the Ann Arbor Dominicans.

Emerging charisms who wish to be affiliated eventually with an order have a tougher row to hoe. Usually there are many years of discernment, then contact with the order they wish to affiliate to. The Order will tell them to let the Heavenly Founder guide them in the particular path he or she wants them to go. The charism will have to be lived, and new members properly trained and finally professed before the order will recognize them as a branch.

There are many, many inconsistencies with emerging charisms as far as what bishops do or don't do on their behalf. Cloister Outreach, with the help of our Dominican spiritual director who was part of the now-defunct Fellowship of Emerging Communities, hopes to help clear the clouds of episcopal inconsistency, and help emerging charisms get their act together. Everybody needs to pray for this inconsistency to be cleared up for the sake of the Church.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Thank you for that information Gemma. I found it very interesting, especially since the new communities I discerned with didn't fulfil your seven pillars or fit into your definitions of Private and Public Associations with regard to number of people, wearing of habit etc. I don't want to go into details, but it does seem to me that there are a lot of things happening with new communities that don't always follow the "rules" or guidelines. That is why it is very important that anyone considering a new community be very careful in their discernment.

Thanks again.

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1790423' date='Feb 24 2009, 03:16 PM']Thank you for that information Gemma. I found it very interesting, especially since the new communities I discerned with didn't fulfil your seven pillars or fit into your definitions of Private and Public Associations with regard to number of people, wearing of habit etc. I don't want to go into details, but it does seem to me that there are a lot of things happening with new communities that don't always follow the "rules" or guidelines. That is why it is very important that anyone considering a new community be very careful in their discernment.

Thanks again.[/quote]

Those are the seven requirements for a community to approach a bishop to ask him for recognition as an association of the faithful. That's from the hermit-canonist we're working with. Until we can present all of that in one cohesive package, we don't need to even talk to him about any kind of "encouragement" as it's called.

Those who participate in our Founders Forum or Founders and Friends yahoo groups get these seven pillars "drilled" into them. There have been others who have been in emerging charisms who have come to me and I have "debriefed" them. The same failings keep coming up.

Yes, discerners, please be careful, but please also keep in mind that emerging means just that--the charism evolves as time goes along, as does the habit. A founder may or may not be able to answer all of your questions right at that moment, simply because they don't have the answers. They should not be ostracized for that. Please give them the charity of prayer!!!

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1790423' date='Feb 24 2009, 03:16 PM']Thank you for that information Gemma. I found it very interesting, especially since the new communities I discerned with didn't fulfil your seven pillars or fit into your definitions of Private and Public Associations with regard to number of people, wearing of habit etc. I don't want to go into details, but it does seem to me that there are a lot of things happening with new communities that don't always follow the "rules" or guidelines. That is why it is very important that anyone considering a new community be very careful in their discernment.

Thanks again.[/quote]

Pardon me, everyone, but I forgot that there is one stage at the very bottom, and those communities being spoken of are likely in that category--"DeFacto Association."

I have emailed a canonist requesting an explanation of the differences between private association of the faithful and the same with the tag "with the intention of becoming an institute of religious life."

Almost seems like "defacto" is a demotion of sorts, in light of the definition of a private association of the faithful.

Blessings,
Gemma