How Feminism Fails Women

[Wolf]

[quote]Why would your church have different rules, you are listed as Catholic?[/quote]

The church itself doesn't have different rules, but some members place a very literal interpretation on the "submission" Scriptures.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]It is difficult to balance independence, strength, and remain feminine and soft.... it really is. You can't be both at the same time without great grace. When I lead one of the committees I am on I am independent and strong. I am bossy and stern... and it is very difficult to be "in charge" and still remain soft and feminine... it is difficult. You have to be sensitive and aware. You have to be patient and understanding. You have to balance the independent and career nature not trusting anyone and doing everything yourself and then that feminine nature that submits and gives over and trusts.... it is hard and anyone who says it is not just hasn't tasted it yet.[/quote]

This...is just ridiculous. And I am really sorry if that is offensive, but my jaw just dropped when I read that.

Should women then avoid leading committees - and, with this mindset - management positions, political positions, law enforcement positions? teaching positions? Should women just stay at home until a suitable husband comes along to ensure their femininity?

As a side note, I find it ironic how anti-feminists see "independence" as weak and feminists see "femininity" as weak. In my opinion, both parties are [b]incredibly[/b] wrong. A woman can be both.

Furthermore, you are doing a lot of stereotyping. First of all no one should be "bossy" - man or woman. That is just plain rudeness. However, what is wrong with a woman being stern? Is a mother not stern with her children while disciplining them? Does stern = masculine? Furthermore, does sensitive = feminine? Should we then tell men to avoid sensitivity since they are acting like women? How absurd.

I would like to hear your opinion on consecrated virgins. They are single and living in the world. Do you believe they are not feminine since they have to support themselves and really focus on their career for comfortable living?

I know that might come off as a rant, but quite frankly it offends me. It offends me because I do not feel particularly called to the married life and it seems like you are implying (forgive me if I am mistaken) that the only way for a woman to be truly feminine is if she is married. Seeing as I am pretty career-driven and eager to follow that dream job, it also seems like I cannot be feminine at the same time. Which is ludicrous, because if you ask anyone who knows me they would laugh if you called me anything other than a "girly girl."

Edited February 7, 2009 by HisChildForever

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Wolf' post='1774797' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:17 PM']The church itself doesn't have different rules, but some members place a very literal interpretation on the "submission" Scriptures.[/quote]


I think you should give them this.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...oration_en.html[/url]

and this:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MULIE.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MULIE.HTM[/url]

[Wolf]

Ah, very interesting, thank you!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1774836' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:28 PM']This...is just ridiculous. And I am really sorry if that is offensive, but my jaw just dropped when I read that.

Should women then avoid leading committees - and, with this mindset - management positions, political positions, law enforcement positions? teaching positions? Should women just stay at home until a suitable husband comes along to ensure their femininity?

As a side note, I find it ironic how anti-feminists see "independence" as weak and feminists see "femininity" as weak. In my opinion, both parties are [b]incredibly[/b] wrong. A woman can be both.

Furthermore, you are doing a lot of stereotyping. First of all no one should be "bossy" - man or woman. That is just plain rudeness. However, what is wrong with a woman being stern? Is a mother not stern with her children while disciplining them? Does stern = masculine? Furthermore, does sensitive = feminine? Should we then tell men to avoid sensitivity since they are acting like women? How absurd.

I would like to hear your opinion on consecrated virgins. They are single and living in the world. Do you believe they are not feminine since they have to support themselves and really focus on their career for comfortable living?

I know that might come off as a rant, but quite frankly it offends me. It offends me because I do not feel particularly called to the married life and it seems like you are implying (forgive me if I am mistaken) that the only way for a woman to be truly feminine is if she is married. Seeing as I am pretty career-driven and eager to follow that dream job, it also seems like I cannot be feminine at the same time. Which is ludicrous, because if you ask anyone who knows me they would laugh if you called me anything other than a "girly girl."[/quote]

You know, I really think you need to chill and possibly re-read my post as it is obvious you either didn't read it all or are just

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1774836' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:28 PM']This...is just ridiculous. And I am really sorry if that is offensive, but my jaw just dropped when I read that.

Should women then avoid leading committees - and, with this mindset - management positions, political positions, law enforcement positions? teaching positions? Should women just stay at home until a suitable husband comes along to ensure their femininity?

As a side note, I find it ironic how anti-feminists see "independence" as weak and feminists see "femininity" as weak. In my opinion, both parties are [b]incredibly[/b] wrong. A woman can be both.

Furthermore, you are doing a lot of stereotyping. First of all no one should be "bossy" - man or woman. That is just plain rudeness. However, what is wrong with a woman being stern? Is a mother not stern with her children while disciplining them? Does stern = masculine? Furthermore, does sensitive = feminine? Should we then tell men to avoid sensitivity since they are acting like women? How absurd.

I would like to hear your opinion on consecrated virgins. They are single and living in the world. Do you believe they are not feminine since they have to support themselves and really focus on their career for comfortable living?

I know that might come off as a rant, but quite frankly it offends me. It offends me because I do not feel particularly called to the married life and it seems like you are implying (forgive me if I am mistaken) that the only way for a woman to be truly feminine is if she is married. Seeing as I am pretty career-driven and eager to follow that dream job, it also seems like I cannot be feminine at the same time. Which is ludicrous, because if you ask anyone who knows me they would laugh if you called me anything other than a "girly girl."[/quote]
I think you that maybe you should read the post again. slowly.

[puellapaschalis]

I'm a single woman living more or less on her own and who is to all intents and purposes financially independant. I could have as many guys as I like round here, climb all the career ladders I wanted to, travel whereever I pleased (once I'd worked long enough to have the money), you name it. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

I'm not called to marriage either.

</useless_personal_anecdotery>

[picchick]

Maybe I am wrong but I think you are both saying the same thing. You can be all those things. However, not at the same time. When you are leading a committee then you need to bring forth the strong leadership qualities that you possess. When you are caring for children the strong leadership qualities may not be the hat you want to put on. So you have the soft, loving motherly characteristics.

This is of course not designed for everyone. There are women out there who cannot lead and are not strong in the sense of a leadership strong. They just do not possess those qualities. We all have different characteristic qualities. We are all different. However, I think that we can pick and choose which qualities to use when.

In my workplace, I need to be caring and kind and all those other characteristics that would fall under the category of "soft and feminine" towards my patients. There are times that I need to use those qualities that fall under "independent and strong". When addressing patients (at least ones that are not combative) I am "softer". Often times, (and I really mean often) I have to address doctors with a less than "soft" attitude. I need to be assertive, strong, independent and fight for my patient. More than once I had to discuss with doctors about a change in patient's condition where they seemed to write it off.

One instance the doctor wanted to order a psychological consult for a patient who was continually vomiting and refusing to eat. I told her that the patient seemed like she was becoming a little depressed by her current situation but did not need a consult because of her vomiting and refusing to eat. The doctor said, "But she is acting like a child. She didn't even eat what I offered her." (the doc offered a piece of meatball) I said, "Doctor, did you ever see the food that they have to eat? Spaghetti never sat well with this patient. Furthermore, she ate a whole coagulated milk sandwich without any problem. Maybe she knew that the meatball would not do her stomach very well. Also, if you vomitted almost every time you ate, wouldn't you be a little hesitant to eat? What is happening is a learned response. 'Everytime I eat, I throw up'. What would you do?" In that incident I could not be "soft" if I did I would not have gotten my point across. Upon returning to the patient's room I was able to go back to the "caring and kind" Meg.

Also, independent doesn't necessarily mean that we don't need anyone. We are all connected. Even the most independent person depends on at least one person if not more. It is not a sign of weakness. It is being human. However, I do no need someone to make me feel like I am a human or I do not need someone else to make me happy. That is my independence. My independence is being able to go here and there without having to report to someone about my whereabouts. (I do tell my folks when I am going out though). My independence is being able to be HUMAN.

I am strong. I am independent. I am caring. I am friendly. I am feminine. I am a woman. These are my qualities. Everyone is different. Even men are different in their own gender.

Alrighty,
Meg

[osapientia]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1774581' date='Feb 7 2009, 11:26 AM']"
It is difficult to balance independence, strength, and remain feminine and soft.... it really is. You can't be both at the same time without great grace. When I lead one of the committees I am on I am independent and strong. I am bossy and stern... and it is very difficult to be "in charge" and still remain soft and feminine... it is difficult. You have to be sensitive and aware. You have to be patient and understanding. You have to balance the independent and career nature not trusting anyone and doing everything yourself and then that feminine nature that submits and gives over and trusts.... it is hard and anyone who says it is not just hasn't tasted it yet.[/quote]


I don't agree that "anyone who says it is not just hasn't tasted it yet". How do you know that? It's entirely possible that women with a lot of experience in management may just have acquired the skills to be very balanced. It may very well be difficult when one is starting out - I find young people in mangement to be far more "bossy and stern" than their older (successful) counterparts. Because of a situation beyond my control I am currently out in the workforce again. I have 25+ years experience - much of it in upper management in a mostly male field. I lead men and women every single day of every single week and I would be utterly shocked to find any one of them who considers me "bossy". In fact, the number of names on the waiting list to get onto my team is longer than the number of allocated for the entire project.....not all of that is about me personally (I'm grateful to God to say that some of it is) - it happens to be a very successful team working on a very interesting project.

In my considerable experience "bossy" is an attitude in need of adjustment and it often reflects a fair amount of insecurity (or at the very least inexperience). That kind of attitude won't take anyone very far. There isn't a person on my team who regards me as anything other than feminine - I have learned to lead from my center - the true self that God gave me (and YES, I agree that Grace is an uncomparable gift here) - my center is decidedly feminine whether or not I happen to be at the head of a conference table.

I am not trying to be picky about your words but in context I do think you mean it the way I am interpreting. If I'm wrong about that, I will stand corrected.

Women in just about every role/walk of life there is are called upon to lead in one way or another - mothers lead children and often have to be strong and stern in their correction, the same goes for superiors in religious houses, ditto for women in corporate positions. This is not a lack of femininity.

I think that one would be hard pressed to say that the wife described in Proverbs 31 is anything but strong and independent...and still she is the pride and joy of her husband. At least the Scriptures seem to indicate that a Godly husband (with a Godly wife) is pleased by a strong and independent woman. Furthermore there doesn't appear to be any conflict with femininity because that Chapter is regularly regarded as depicting the Scriptural feminine ideal.


Pax

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='picchick' post='1775017' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:26 PM']Maybe I am wrong but I think you are both saying the same thing. You can be all those things. However, not at the same time.[/quote]

I wrote (which she would know if she read the entire post before she went off on me) that I believe a woman can be all those things at the same time. It is difficult, but I believe she can do it with the grace of God, as so many heroic women have.

However, she did not read the post. I am wondering if anyone did besides cmom

I liked your post picchick.

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1775027' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:31 PM']However, she did not read the post. I am wondering if anyone did besides cmom

I liked your post picchick. [/quote]


me

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='osapientia' post='1775025' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:30 PM']I don't agree that "anyone who says it is not just hasn't tasted it yet". How do you know that? It's entirely possible that women with a lot of experience in management may just have acquired the skills to be very balanced. It may very well be difficult when one is starting out - I find young people in mangement to be far more "bossy and stern" than their older (successful) counterparts. Because of a situation beyond my control I am currently out in the workforce again. I have 25+ years experience - much of it in upper management in a mostly male field. I lead men and women every single day of every single week and I would be utterly shocked to find any one of them who considers me "bossy". In fact, the number of names on the waiting list to get onto my team is longer than the number of allocated for the entire project.....not all of that is about me personally (I'm grateful to God to say that some of it is) - it happens to be a very successful team working on a very interesting project.

In my considerable experience "bossy" is an attitude in need of adjustment and it often reflects a fair amount of insecurity (or at the very least inexperience). That kind of attitude won't take anyone very far. There isn't a person on my team who regards me as anything other than feminine - I have learned to lead from my center - the true self that God gave me (and YES, I agree that Grace is an uncomparable gift here) - my center is decidedly feminine whether or not I happen to be at the head of a conference table.

I am not trying to be picky about your words but in context I do think you mean it the way I am interpreting. If I'm wrong about that, I will stand corrected.

Women in just about every role/walk of life there is are called upon to lead in one way or another - mothers lead children and often have to be strong and stern in their correction, the same goes for superiors in religious houses, ditto for women in corporate positions. This is not a lack of femininity.

I think that one would be hard pressed to say that the wife described in Proverbs 31 is anything but strong and independent...and still she is the pride and joy of her husband. At least the Scriptures seem to indicate that a Godly husband (with a Godly wife) is pleased by a strong and independent woman. Furthermore there doesn't appear to be any conflict with femininity because that Chapter is regularly regarded as depicting the Scriptural feminine ideal.


Pax[/quote]



Please read my post and not just the tid-bit that HCF plucked out and took out of context.

Edited February 7, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[osapientia]

[quote name='picchick' post='1775017' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:26 PM']Also, independent doesn't necessarily mean that we don't need anyone. We are all connected. Even the most independent person depends on at least one person if not more. It is not a sign of weakness. It is being human.
Alrighty,
Meg[/quote]

This is a very good point. In fact, it is said by many a professional counselor (spiritual and clinical) that "independence" is an an adolescent stage but inter-dependence is a sign of greater maturity.

I'm sure there is more to it all than that....just making a general observation I have often heard.

Pax

[picchick]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1775027' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:31 PM']I wrote (which she would know if she read the entire post before she went off on me) that I believe a woman can be all those things at the same time. It is difficult, but I believe she can do it with the grace of God, as so many heroic women have.

However, she did not read the post. I am wondering if anyone did besides cmom

I liked your post picchick. [/quote]

Thanks. I see what HisChildForever is saying. I think that too many people categorize others into the groups of "women" and "men" each with their respective characteristics that have been assigned since the beginning of time. Any deviation from that means "unwomanly" or "unmanly". Everyone is different.

You know I was thinking, St. Joan of Arc was an excellent saint to use here. She was womanly. Strong, independent and a leader. She lead an army! I mean, you really can't look at blood shed in the making and not be those qualities. However, she also cried, she also had emotions, she also wanted to live a "quiet humble" life. She was soft, delicate, and feminine. She cried about the bloodshed after the fact. What an excellent example.

[osapientia]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1775031' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:33 PM']Please read my post and not just the tid-bit that HCF plucked out and took out of context.

[/quote]

I did read the post. I only responded to the part I thought was a bit "off" in my opinion - mostly because your post generalized about "anyone who says.....they just haven't tasted" etc.

I took exception to that generalization.

Let me clarify further. I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post regarding the necessity and importance of Grace.

Sorry - I should have included that in my previous post.

Pax