Hassan Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1774455' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:00 AM']I think Sarah Palin is the perfect example for a woman who is feminine and independent.[/quote] agh! We were having a nice moment of agreement there and you had to go and spoil it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1774458' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:02 AM']Seriously now. A woman can be living on her own and pursuing her dream job and still graciously accept her date paying for the dinner. [/quote] That's such a flipping racket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1774462' date='Feb 7 2009, 12:06 AM']agh! We were having a nice moment of agreement there and you had to go and spoil it [/quote] Well you can disagree with her politics but it would be silly to deny that she is both feminine and independent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1774399' date='Feb 7 2009, 12:20 AM']Being soft, feminine, independent and strong all at the same time?[/quote] Her problem is that she doesn't sound like a strong, independent woman. She wasn't even independent, certainly not independently minded, she dogmatically accepted the claims of an idiot pop star. Rather than being truly strong and independent she he simply slept around a lot and was obsessed with career advancement, that's not being "strong and independent" but really just "slutty and hyper materialistic". I don't know any guys who really are interested in a woman like that any more than most women would be interested in a man who jumped into bed with every woman who would and put his job beyond all else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Are you sure she was on the ticket with the 'pop star'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='notardillacid' post='1774490' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:27 AM']Are you sure she was on the ticket with the 'pop star'?[/quote] hm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Very interesting subject. My girlfriend does not like the prospect of me making all the decisions in our future marriage. If there is one! I don't like that idea either. Yet some Bible fundamentalists claim that a woman's place is to submit. Controversial stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='Wolf' post='1774555' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:30 PM']Very interesting subject. My girlfriend does not like the prospect of me making all the decisions in our future marriage. If there is one! I don't like that idea either. Yet some Bible fundamentalists claim that a woman's place is to submit. Controversial stuff.[/quote] Submitting doesn't mean being mindless & just doing as you are told. And it would be pretty much impossible for you to make [i]all [/i]the decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1774565' date='Feb 7 2009, 09:02 AM']Submitting doesn't mean being mindless & just doing as you are told. And it would be pretty much impossible for you to make [i]all [/i]the decisions. [/quote] I quite agree. I wasn't saying those are my views, but I do know plenty of people who take "submissive" to mean that a woman should be silent. It's very difficult - both myself and my girlfriend struggle with those texts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osapientia Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Wolf' post='1774566' date='Feb 7 2009, 10:06 AM']I quite agree. I wasn't saying those are my views, but I do know plenty of people who take "submissive" to mean that a woman should be silent. It's very difficult - both myself and my girlfriend struggle with those texts.[/quote] For what its worth - I know not everyone posting to this thread is Roman Catholic - Pope John Paul II (via Christopher West's teaching on JP II's Theology of the Body) says that a wife does not submit to her husband's will but to his love. I think the term (also in the Scripture) wife is extremely significant in that it represents a very particular (for Catholics - sacramental) relationship and therefore it (and the Scripture teaching) does not exist in a vaccuum - remember too, that the Scripture teaching to the wife comes after the Scripture addressed to the husband which says he must love his wife as Christ loves the Church (willing to die for her)...it is this sacrificial love to which the wife submits. I know fundamentalists who like to "expand" the word wife to woman but that is not the teaching nor the intent of the Scripture.....apart from the oneness of the married relationship (husband and wife are the same body, spiritually/Scripturally speaking) the exhortation to submit does not exist in Scripture. Except of course that we are all called to submit to each other in love. I think the words wife and woman are worth differentiating. I believe the Scripture being referred to here in at least one post is Paul's letter to the Ephesians Chapter 5 (hmmm or is it 6..I forget) that is certainly my reference point. It speaks only to the married relationship. Any old woman is not required to submit to any old man. Whether or not a woman can be both feminine and soft while at the same time strong and independent is another story. Someone posted the question "have you ever tiried it" (i.e. being soft & feminine at the same time as independent and strong) - I guess I have another question by "at the same time" are we meaning to say the same "moment" - like hours, second minutes"? I can see that might be difficult but it's certainly possible for a woman to be both soft and feminine an strong and independent in her personhood. Just my .02 Pax *edited for typo Edited February 7, 2009 by osapientia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) "Let us begin by calmly comparing the actual life of women as it generally is today and with our requirements. Many of the best women are almost overwhelmed by the double burden of family duties and professional life - or often simply of only gainful employment. Always on the go, they are harassed, nervous, and irritable. Where are they to go get the needed inner peace and cheerfulness in order to offer stability, support, and guidance to others? Even when there is mutual love and recognition of achievements, there are small daily frictions between a woman and her husband and children; this results in uneasiness throughout the entire household and a slackening of relationships in the home. Along with this, there are many superficial and unstable women who chase after pleasure to fill their inner void, who marry and are divorced; often the home and children are abandoned either to themselves or to domestics, strangers who are no more conscientious than the mothers themselves. If it is necessary for them to seek gainful employment, they do so only as a means to an end, i.e., to make a living and to grasp life's pleasures to the nth degree; in their case, one can speak neither of profession or of ethos. They are like shifting quicksand. The breakdown of family life and the decline of morals are actually connected with the increase in number of such women and can only be checked by reducing their number; this can be done with the help of a qualified educational system for young girls.[b] Finally, we would consider the group of women, by no means negligible, who choose a profession suitable to their ability and inclination. Among them may be found quite a few who discover, after their initial gratification, that their expectations are unfulfilled and they long to be elsewhere. Frequently, this is due to their having taken pains to fill their post "just like a man." They have neither searched for nor found the ways and means to make their feminine nature fruitful in professional life; and the denied, stifled nature asserts itself. [/b]" - St. Edith Stein. The women in the article sounds like the kind pointed out by St. Edith lastly. It is very sad. It is difficult to balance independence, strength, and remain feminine and soft.... it really is. You can't be both at the same time without great grace. When I lead one of the committees I am on I am independent and strong. I am bossy and stern... and it is very difficult to be "in charge" and still remain soft and feminine... it is difficult. You have to be sensitive and aware. You have to be patient and understanding. You have to balance the independent and career nature not trusting anyone and doing everything yourself and then that feminine nature that submits and gives over and trusts.... it is hard and anyone who says it is not just hasn't tasted it yet. [u] However, I do think it possible and that is with grace.[/u] You look at St. Catherine of Siena, St. Edith Stein, Bl. Anna Maria Taigi, St. Teresa of Avila, Bl. Mother Teresa, Mother Angelica, and my godmother who was both a nurse and mother that imparted the faith to three children and was ever aware of and accomplished her duties at home... [b]all women who when you think of them balanced careers or powerful stations in the church and yet remained feminine and true to their maternal nature. [u]And I believe this was only accomplished by the power of grace. [/u] [/b] "Contrary to this sad image of the average woman, one can still find true heroines in all walks of life. They perform wonders on the job in families, professions, and the seclusion of the cloister. All of us are familiar with them from the church records and also from personal experience. There are the mothers who, radiating all warmth and light in the home, raise as many as nine children and impart to them and to their own children full blessings for their entire lives; and these women are magnanimous as well towards all strangers in need. There are the minor instructors and officials who support an entire fmaily from their salary and look after domestic affairs before and after the professional work; yet, they can also find time and money for different church and charitable functions. There are the nuns who wrestle for endangered souls in nocturnal prayer, assuming voluntary penances for their sins. What is the source of their strength? How explain all their achievements which one might often declare to be impossible by nature? How account for that unruffled peace and cheerfulness even in the keenest nervous and emotional stress? [b]Only by the power of grace can nature be liberated from its dross, restored to its purity, and made free to receive divine life."[/b] - St. Edith Stein I think the woman in the article was not only done in by the feminist movement which told her she should seek after profession and not give in to maternal inclinations, but also by the world which told her [u][b]she[/b][/u] can do everything, when reality she can't. It is only by grace... "Teresa can do nothing. Jesus and Teresa can do everything." - St. Teresa of Avila Edited February 7, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osapientia Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1774389' date='Feb 7 2009, 12:15 AM']Not so sure about this statement because women can be "soft and feminine" [b]and[/b] "independent and strong" at the same time.[/quote] Well I just read this article and saw the statement you are not sure about... I have to say I thought the article was a bit "whiny". Seems like the women quoted are a bit on the "blamey" side....it's feminism's fault, it's mom's fault, oh if only I'd had other choices presented to me etc etc. When was there ever a time when women were not becoming wives and having babies...yes, more women during the time this author was growing up were chossing careers rather than marriage but I'm absolutely certain that all around these women were other women having babies and husbands and carrying dough in their hands. I know that because I grew up basically around the same time...I'm a bit older than she but not by that much. Please don't get me wrong. I think what passes for feminism nowadays is regrettable to say the least. One thing I agree in part with from the article is that the choice to be a wife and mother ought to have parity with the choice for a career. The reason I agree only in part is because I believe the roles of wife and mother are so important I think they are a "higher" choice then career. Gosh I'm so "linear" and I'm not even a guy <wink>...wasn't sure what other word I could use there. They certainly produce far more lasting and globally significant "results". By the way - not to be "fresh" but IF whiny/blamey = soft/feminine - count me out. Just another .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='Wolf' post='1774566' date='Feb 7 2009, 10:06 AM']I quite agree. I wasn't saying those are my views, but I do know plenty of people who take "submissive" to mean that a woman should be silent. It's very difficult - both myself and my girlfriend struggle with those texts.[/quote] When a man loves his wife as he loves himself, and a woman loves her husband as much as she loves herself there usually not too many problems. Nobody expects the guy to make [b]all[/b] the decisions, each of you have your strengths and weaknesses, and it would be silly if you do the finances if she was an economics major. A wife certainly has no call to be silent or make not make her wants, desires, and needs known. Each of you has your set of responsibilities. Its the husband's job as head of the family [ the responsibility and authority] to make the best decisions for the family as a whole, not just what works for him. If he has to work extra hours etc to support his family that is his responsibility, he has to sacrifice his wants and desires for the sake of the family. So no he can't go to bars or sit glued to the TV when his wife is trying to put the kids to bed because its his job to support his wife. And she can't be out running shopping and hanging with her friends and not taking care of the family either. Each of you has your proper role. You may call this "stereotypical" but stereotypes are not always a bad thing. Its not that society dumped this roles on us for a whim, its because the roles within the general scheme of things WORK! They are not laid in stone, do not have a strict set of rules, but generally are a way to exist within your natural skills and competencies to make family life work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Very wise and thoughtful reply. I do struggle sometimes with the people in my church who seek to apply those Scriptures in a very oppressive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='Wolf' post='1774768' date='Feb 7 2009, 01:06 PM']Very wise and thoughtful reply. I do struggle sometimes with the people in my church who seek to apply those Scriptures in a very oppressive way.[/quote] Why would your church have different rules, you are listed as Catholic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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